Alignment Questions

[rzr6-4]

Right, so that is downward or upward turn?

If you can't look at the threads and figure out which way you should turn, you shouldn't be doing it. Cmon now.

 

[DanAR]

Back in the day, we used to spend a bit more time on the troublesome vehicles. On occasion, we would need to " play" with the adjustments to get the vehicle right. Now a days as long as its in the green, out the door it goes. Sad commentary on today's work ethic.

With your experience, please explain to me the significance of left and right toe measurements. I work on my old cars doing garage alignments with a tram and camber/caster gauges and 50-60 year old shop manuals. Toe in/out was always dealt with as a combined figure for both sides - not left & right. Thus increasing toe on one side only had no effect other than to throw your steering wheel out of alignment and put the center point of the old recirculating ball steering box off its high point lash setting. Or it could be done to correct centering of the steering wheel and center point of the steering box. Toe was never represented as a remedy for pulling and primarily just used to minimize tire scrubbing or to fine tune steering turn in for performance driving. Of course this was back in the days of bias ply tires, positive camber, and minimum caster to ease manual steering effort.

So, my question is from what reference point do alignment centers and lasers/computers today even measure left and right toe on the front? From a center point on the rack? From the steering wheel straight up position? Basically, as long as the rear is not mis-tracking, and the road is flat, any L and R toe differences are going to equalize side-to-side as soon as you pull out on the road and the steering rack and steering wheel positions just fall where they fall. It’s not going to affect pull in either direction that I can see because in response to pull someone will steer in the opposite direction which increases toe in on the side of pull and decreases toe in on the opposite side.

Merely a question for my curiosity.

 

[Hagar1]

Left and right toe is only to keep the steering wheel straight and maintain the steering gear at the "center in the rack or steering box"
To take it to an "extreme" if the toe was proper but grossly miss adjusted, on a steering gear that had 4 turns lock to lock, it could be conceivable to have 2 1/2 turns one way and 1 1/2 turns the other.
As you say, the toe will indeed "equalize but ...... will the steering wheel be centered and will it be on the "high spot" in the steering gear.

 

[Bigskyroadglide]

My .02, if you ever given an alignment sheet with red on it, reject it, they didn't do what you paid for.

I would swap wheels front to back on the side of the pull. Could be a tire,but after that back to the shop. Havebthem do it over

 

[Burla]

My .02, if you ever given an alignment sheet with red on it, reject it, they didn't do what you paid for.

I would swap wheels front to back on the side of the pull. Could be a tire,but after that back to the shop. Havebthem do it over

He had the after that showed green on bottom.

Also maybe in the same ilk on your idea he can also lift front end and see if there is more play on either front tire. Other factors that may be part of this not related to alignment.

 

[DanAR]

Left and right toe is only to keep the steering wheel straight and maintain the steering gear at the "center in the rack or steering box"
To take it to an "extreme" if the toe was proper but grossly miss adjusted, on a steering gear that had 4 turns lock to lock, it could be conceivable to have 2 1/2 turns one way and 1 1/2 turns the other.
As you say, the toe will indeed "equalize but ...... will the steering wheel be centered and will it be on the "high spot" in the steering gear.

Thank you - this is as I suspected but couldn’t be sure.

 

[Sherman Bird]

New Ram owner

2025 Ram 1500 Big Horn crew cab 4x4 3.6.

I noticed at time of purchase that it felt like the truck drifted/pulled to the right when driving. I mentioned it on the test drove with the salesman and also let him know after driving it home that night (1+ hour ride) that I felt it on different roads and at different speeds. Mentioned to him I would give it a week or so and see if it settled out, and get back in touch after that if I felt it needed to be checked.

I ended up doing a 2 inch level and also replaced the tires to get a slightly taller sidewall. Went from 275/55r20 to 275/65r20. Right after the installation and mount, I went and got an alignment done from an independent shop.

I just drove the vehicle about 700 miles to the northeast across 6 states for a work trip. I notice that in order to drove straight, I feel like the steering wheel is ever so slightly turned to the left. When I let go, the wheel gradually straightens itself out, but the truck pulls pretty noticeably to the right at that point. The steering wheel offset is minor. While I do feel it's not exactly center/balanced, its do also recognize it could just be my OCD. The pull to the right is also minor ish while holding the wheel, not like im using muscle to fight it. But when I let go the pull does in fact gradually drift me into the right lane.

Questions:
1. Attached is my alignment report. Does anything stand out in there on what may be causing this?
2. Ill end up driving probably about 2000 miles this week. If something is slightly off with my alignment based on the description I shared above, is 2k miles enough to do any premature damage to my tires? They are brand new, so would hate to cause premature wear to them already on this one single trip.
3. Are variances like this in pull and steering normal with larger tires on a truck? These put me at just about 34.2 inch tires with a 2 inch level.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

So... you lifted the truck? suspension lift, or body lift? Also, you admit to taller tires. Something NOT shown on your report is: How much toe change under load is there? This isn't taught anywhere that I'm aware of, but it makes a HUGE difference to get rid of it.

Next, let's talk about tire scrub/ steering axis inclination/ included angle. The center line of the top to bottom axis of the tire/ wheel is designed to intersect this angle on the ground, mid-tread.
Changing to taller tires blows this out of the water, netting high tire scrub rate, resulting in accelerated wear.

I actually attended a VERY good school for alignment back in my GM days. This was NOT a GM training school, but one that GM signed off on to address customer concerns. That instructor taught to align for stability and elimination of pull/drift and tire wear.

Needless to say, this method worked/works. Later, when I owned my big shop, I applied this learning to my alignment procedures and never had one comeback.

In conclusion, you should seek out someone schooled in the "offbeat" method that WORKS. There must be many others who know the score. A kiddo working on a machine (alignment) just following the cartoonish chart isn't likely to know how to really do an effective alignment. This world we live in today has no "golden standard" anymore. Instead, they are cookie cutter order takers with a myopic viewpoint of "That'll do".

 

[Bigskyroadglide]

He had the after that showed green on bottom.

Also maybe in the same ilk on your idea he can also lift front end and see if there is more play on either front tire. Other factors that may be part of this not related to alignment.

Sorry I missed the 2nd post alignment sheet.

My bad

 

[Hagar1]

Right, so that is downward or upward turn?

Take a close look at the threads on the tie rods. Put a mark on the sleeve and on the tie rod itself so that you can always get back to where you were if you get sidetracked.

 

[Hagar1]

So... you lifted the truck? suspension lift, or body lift? Also, you admit to taller tires. Something NOT shown on your report is: How much toe change under load is there? This isn't taught anywhere that I'm aware of, but it makes a HUGE difference to get rid of it.

Next, let's talk about tire scrub/ steering axis inclination/ included angle. The center line of the top to bottom axis of the tire/ wheel is designed to intersect this angle on the ground, mid-tread.
Changing to taller tires blows this out of the water, netting high tire scrub rate, resulting in accelerated wear.

I actually attended a VERY good school for alignment back in my GM days. This was NOT a GM training school, but one that GM signed off on to address customer concerns. That instructor taught to align for stability and elimination of pull/drift and tire wear.

Needless to say, this method worked/works. Later, when I owned my big shop, I applied this learning to my alignment procedures and never had one comeback.

In conclusion, you should seek out someone schooled in the "offbeat" method that WORKS. There must be many others who know the score. A kiddo working on a machine (alignment) just following the cartoonish chart isn't likely to know how to really do an effective alignment. This world we live in today has no "golden standard" anymore. Instead, they are cookie cutter order takers with a myopic viewpoint of "That'll do".

Yes indeed, a lot of people that play around with raising / lowering their vehicles tend to create problems when none previously existed. The scrub radius is important in the handling and braking of a vehicle. The included angle is the combined angle of Steering Axis Inclination and Caster. If the Included Angle is not correct, something is bent. SAI is generally taken for granted and is not measurable with some alignment equipment.
Looks like we are on the same page...........

 

[sroc112]

Thanks for all the feedback here.

Just to reiterate, felt the pull at time of purchase. Did the front level, tires, got alignment done, still have pull.

 

[Yardbird]

You will still have a pull. The only thing they did was change the front toe a small bit. Didn't touch caster at all.

Until they put more caster in the passenger side, or less caster in the drivers side, you will continue to have pull.

 

[pjorlando]

If I remember correctly. There are differen specs for a lifted truck. Not sure if AllData or Mitchell’s has them listed. Both caster and camber play a role in how the truck goes down the road.

 

[pjorlando]

Lifted not lites

 

[sroc112]

Going back to the shop tomorrow to have them take a 2nd look. Will share the report when im done.

 

[Sherman Bird]

If I remember correctly. There are differen specs for a lifted truck. Not sure if AllData or Mitchell’s has them listed. Both caster and camber play a role in how the truck goes down the road.

Back in the day, I had a large shop with alignment services we offered. In those days, young tuners would lower itty bitty cars which were manufactured low enough, and positive offset wheels which stuck halfway out of the wheel wells.
I'll bet you can accurately guess when I'd turn away every one of those cars, and refuse any services on those cars.

Can you say "Liability"? I knew you could!

 

[Yardbird]

Going back to the shop tomorrow to have them take a 2nd look. Will share the report when im done.

Make sure they know it pulls, which way, and to put more caster in the side that pulls, then you test drive it, and if it isn't right, put it back on the rack and adjust some more.

If they won't do that, try to get your money back and go somewhere else that will work with you.

I know those places are hard to find now, and they try to make you feel ignorant or a bother to them. They will claim it's within specs, so you must have something bent, worn, ect...ect...ect...

It is near impossible to find a front end guy that actually knows something besides red and green.

 

[Dusty]

Frankly, based on your description of this being ever so slight, I'd leave it alone. After a while your muscle memory will do the compensation for you. If you're prone to be OCD, you may be entering that OCD zone where you become obsessed with the issue.

My 1500 is eight years old and has an ever so slight pull on the downward side of road crown. Tires have always worn evenly and I've never had an alignment on this vehicle.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 136603 miles.

 

[Hagar1]

Make sure they know it pulls, which way, and to put more caster in the side that pulls, then you test drive it, and if it isn't right, put it back on the rack and adjust some more.

If they won't do that, try to get your money back and go somewhere else that will work with you.

I know those places are hard to find now, and they try to make you feel ignorant or a bother to them. They will claim it's within specs, so you must have something bent, worn, ect...ect...ect...

It is near impossible to find a front end guy that actually knows something besides red and green.

Can also compensate slightly by increasing Camber slightly more positive on the side opposite to the pull.

 

[sroc112]

Went this morning. He addressed the issue of the fact the steering wheel was slightly off center, appears to now be straight. He did not adjust the caster, tweaked the Toe slightly. Unfortunately the drive home was short and I did not have an opportunity to pick up speed. Seemed to be at least a bit better, but also felt there may still be minor pull. Ill need to get out on highway and see how it feels in comparison to the pull before.

This leads me to believe the only remedy from here is to address the open service bulletin specific for the 2025 model year where the pull is common, not fixed through alignment, and instead requires a reprogram of the electronic steering module.

@Dusty OCD to the max baby. Admittedly, that is part of the issue. Just drove the truck 1500 miles round-trip across 6 states last week and the amount of time I spent staring at the steering wheel and letting go to see how bad the pull was, was exhausting to say the least.