Anyone HAPPY with Borg Warner 44-44 / Auto 4WD

[Bluto]

With that case 4hi behaves the same as 4 auto anyways so its still the same parts slamming

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Well that sucks.

 

[Bytehoven]

Greetings...

I have been following the forum for awhile but just joined.

I am considering trading my 2013 Durango for a 2017 1500, built for light duty off road like surf fishing the Eastern Coast and traveling hunting trails in PA and WV.

I have been running Jeep and Dodge vehicles for awhile...
- '86 XJ Cherokee - Command Trac - Part-Time with rear LSD
- '98 ZJ JGC - Select Trac - Part-Time/Full-Time with rear LSD (lemon tranny)
- '99 Durango SLT+ Gen 1 - Select Trac - Full-Time/Part-Time with rear LSD.
- 2006 Ram 2500 - ( ? TC ) Part-Time with rear LSD.
- 2009 WK JGC Limited - Quadra Trac II + Quadra Drive I with front and rear ELSD.
- 2014 Cherokee Latitude - Auto Drive II -AWD Full-Time (2 Speed TC with Lo Speed Crawl Gear) (Wife's Car)
- 2013 Durango Citadel 3rd Gen - MP3023 2 Speed TC - AWD with Lo Speed and rear LSD.
- 2017 Cherokee Limited - Auto Drive I - AWD Full-Time (Single Speed HI TC) (Wife's new lease)

I wanted to inquire and clarify how the MP3023 TC works on the 2013 Durango... it's a 2 speed TC with AWD On Demand Hi-Mode, and a 4WD Lo Speed Mode. I believe the Lo speed crawl mode does lock the TC in a 50/50 split... is this correct? When in Lo, the TC does bind on a dry surface, but I wondered if this Lo speed is set up with the 1600 ft/lb clutch pressure mentioned earlier or does it lock in 4W Lo?

As other have noted, performance on slippery surfaces vary when comparing Part-Time and Full-Time systems. I'd also note difference between older mechanical Full-Time and newer sensor driven Full-Time systems.

All of these vehicles have been very good to awesome in snow and light Off Road duty. If I was to rate their 4WD performance...

- the Quadra Drive JGC was top of the heap with the '86 XJ PT TC and Gen 1 D FT/PT TC where a close 2nd. These babies with oversize tires could drive on sand with very little adjustment to tire pressures, especially the the light weight XJ with 235/75R15 tires, and performance in slick conditions was incredible. That '86 XJ had the old Michelin X M&S tires and that baby could crawl up icy hills others feared to tread.

- The 2013 D has the least effective 4WD system of the bunch, but still one of the best among it's 7 passenger SUV peers. I have it set up with JGC front Tow Hooks and sightly oversize Firestone Destination A/T tires, and I have yet to get stuck on any beach or hunting trail. Although the clearance challenges of this D have eliminated some of the places I used to take the other vehicles.

As I have said... I am considering trading this 2013 D on a new Ram 1500 since I no longer have need of the 7 passenger capability. Based on my experience with all of these previous vehicles, I too would probably prefer the Borg-Warner 44-45 on a Rebel or 1500 build. I understand the compromise is making sure my kids and wife understand activating the Part-Time 4WD, versus the AUTO mode on the 2013 D and my wife's Cherokee(s).

I have enjoyed the discussion in this thread.

Byte
....

 

[ColdCase]

The MP3023 mechanically locks the drive shafts in 4 Low. Otherwise the amount of lock is provided by a clutch pack controlled by a traction computer. This case is also used in many light duty Cheby pickups.

The MP3023 case is similar in operation to your JGC QTII case, although manufactured by different companies. The JGC ELSDs are very good, but they are hydraulically operated so they need some wheel spin to work. The E indicates that the LSD can be disabled electrically (so it doesn't fight ABS in quick stops). The MP3023 is also the 2011+ JGC QTII case and, with the addition of ELSD and some traction software, will perform much better than the older 2009/2011 QD JGCs, especially on snow and ice. Its ELSD is completely electrically controlled (similar to the clutch packs in the transfer case), so it can be locked in anticipation of wheel spin, such as stabbing the throttle or in snow mode.

Just saying that its not the D's transfer case that is limiting traction.

 

[barbosa]

It hasn't let me down yet. I have no interest in deliberately driving through slippery mud and the few times I've had no choice, I go as far as I can in 2wd and when I get stuck I hit 4 auto and haven't been stuck yet.

I do regularly ride some sand trails that require 4wd in a few spots and use the same method.

I'm sure tires play a large role in those two terrains, and I'm in Florida where snow and ice are never present.


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[VA10]

I was off road for a full day using a combo of 4hi/4lo/2h (i have the lsd) I drove through tall slippery wet grass mostly. I also pulled a tree out of the ground using 4hi and 4lo. All 4 wheels pulled and pulled hard. I feel like the bw 44-44 locks in into 4x4 once the rear wheels slip. And does not disengage to 2x4 until the truck slows to below a certain mph. Or so it felt that way when I was pulling the tree the other day...

Also 4hi requires less rear wheel slip than 4 atuo to engage 4x4. In my truck the 4hi lock engages almost instantly on any surface but bone dry surfaces.

Question,

I drive a rutted muddy, wet, loose rock road up a mountain to a hunting spot 3-4x on the weekend. When I put the truck in 4hiLOCK/4lo - once the rear wheels slip (with the accelerator pressed) does the BW 44-44 lock up until the truck comes to a complete stop?

I ask this because once my truck slips the rear wheels the fronts behave like a part time system (noises, and resistant steering). Even when my foot is off the gas (after the rears slipped while applying throttle.) but once I pressed the break and come to a complete stop it then feels like it requires slippage before it acts as 4x4 again.

If this is true which i need to test more / hear from other users. Would this technically allow RAM to say "lock" on the button? HAHA marketing these days is very technical.


I realize the term "lock" does not apply to the BW 44-44 in the sense of traditional 4x4 lingo. ALSO I REALLY THINK THE BW 44-44 IS MORE CAPABLE THAN MANY PEOPLE WANT TO GIVE IT CREDIT FOR. ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE AN LSD and KNOW how to initially get the 4x4 system to activate correctly.

 

[loveracing1988]

I was off road for a full day using a combo of 4hi/4lo/2h (i have the lsd) I drove through tall slippery wet grass mostly. I also pulled a tree out of the ground using 4hi and 4lo. All 4 wheels pulled and pulled hard. I feel like the bw 44-44 locks in into 4x4 once the rear wheels slip. And does not disengage to 2x4 until the truck slows to below a certain mph. Or so it felt that way when I was pulling the tree the other day...

Also 4hi requires less rear wheel slip than 4 atuo to engage 4x4. In my truck the 4hi lock engages almost instantly on any surface but bone dry surfaces.

Question,

I drive a rutted muddy, wet, loose rock road up a mountain to a hunting spot 3-4x on the weekend. When I put the truck in 4hiLOCK/4lo - once the rear wheels slip (with the accelerator pressed) does the BW 44-44 lock up until the truck comes to a complete stop?

I ask this because once my truck slips the rear wheels the fronts behave like a part time system (noises, and resistant steering). Even when my foot is off the gas (after the rears slipped while applying throttle.) but once I pressed the break and come to a complete stop it then feels like it requires slippage before it acts as 4x4 again.

If this is true which i need to test more / hear from other users. Would this technically allow RAM to say "lock" on the button? HAHA marketing these days is very technical.


I realize the term "lock" does not apply to the BW 44-44 in the sense of traditional 4x4 lingo. ALSO I REALLY THINK THE BW 44-44 IS MORE CAPABLE THAN MANY PEOPLE WANT TO GIVE IT CREDIT FOR. ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAVE AN LSD and KNOW how to initially get the 4x4 system to activate correctly.

It seems like the threshold is different for everyone, but in my truck as soon as I let off the throttle it didn't matter how fast I was going it disengaged the clutch.

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[VA10]

It seems like the threshold is different for everyone, but in my truck as soon as I let off the throttle it didn't matter how fast I was going it disengaged the clutch.

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I noticed it more when I was dragging a tree out of a hunting spot. when I put the truck in 4lo for example. I would start pulling the tree from a dead stop on dirt and wet tall grass. after giving it gas my buddy would yell "stop! you are just spinning all 4 wheels - your gonna rut up the trail!" So I would then apply the brake I could feel all 4 wheels and pulling hard/the drive line binding. MY buddy even asked me why are giving it gas after I tell you to stop lol. anyways just my experience so far.

I know this is far fetched but maybe the BW 44-44 in an outdoorsman are programmed differently????????

 

[loveracing1988]

I noticed it more when I was dragging a tree out of a hunting spot. when I put the truck in 4lo for example. I would start pulling the tree from a dead stop on dirt and wet tall grass. after giving it gas my buddy would yell "stop! you are just spinning all 4 wheels - your gonna rut up the trail!" So I would then apply the brake I could feel all 4 wheels and pulling hard/the drive line binding. MY buddy even asked me why are giving it gas after I tell you to stop lol. anyways just my experience so far.

I know this is far fetched but maybe the BW 44-44 in an outdoorsman are programmed differently????????

No, mine was an outdoorsman. Now in the 4 years since mine they might have come up with different software to keep down complaints and warranty concerns or it could be hardware changes, I don't know.

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[VA10]

Aw shoot.

 

[cbsmith]

In 4Lo there is so much gear reduction that there is a lot of spinning mass in the transmission and transfer case spinning st high speeds, even though the tires are turning slowly.

With this gear reduction you need to put a lot more pressure on the brake pedal to stop the tires as the engine torque is multiplied a number of times.

Mostly likely it was just the spinning momentum and extra torque keeping the wheels spinning a bit longer when you pressed the brakes

 

[crash68]

I know this is far fetched but maybe the BW 44-44 in an outdoorsman are programmed differently????????

Outdoorsman models have the BW 44-45 part time transfer case, there is no programming of when the fronts are engaged. When you put it in 4X4 there is power sent to the front wheels. They are are not suited for driving on hard dry surfaces while in 4X4, binding can occur while turning.

There were some Outdoorsmans built with the BW 44-44 but they were CCLB trucks(I think just the 14 model year), and would have the "Auto 4x4" button. BW 44-45 transfer case trucks don't have the "Auto" button.

 

[Sir John]

Outdoorsman models have the BW 44-45 part time transfer case, there is no programming of when the fronts are engaged.

The Rebels have the BW 44-45 too.

 

[VA10]

Outdoorsman models have the BW 44-45 part time transfer case, there is no programming of when the fronts are engaged. When you put it in 4X4 there is power sent to the front wheels. They are are not suited for driving on hard dry surfaces while in 4X4, binding can occur while turning.

There were some Outdoorsmans built with the BW 44-44 but they were CCLB trucks(I think just the 14 model year), and would have the "Auto 4x4" button. BW 44-45 transfer case trucks don't have the "Auto" button.

Not all outdoorman have the 44-45. depending on bed config you get the 44-44. I have 6'4'' bed and have the 44-44.

 

[loveracing1988]

Not all outdoorman have the 44-45. depending on bed config you get the 44-44. I have 6'4'' bed and have the 44-44.

That was only for 2013 and 2014. For 2015 they changed it to the 44-45.

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[Bluto]

How can you identify which one you have?

 

[cbsmith]

If you have a 2013+ and have an auto 4wd button.

 

[Murphy Slaw]

How can you identify which one you have?

Yea, pretty much all of the upper trim models, Bighorn, Laramie, Sport.

You'll hear a lot of complaining, but not many failures....

 

[JPT]

Yea, pretty much all of the upper trim models, Bighorn, Laramie, Sport.

You'll hear a lot of complaining, but not many failures....

I can agree with this, while I do understand the argument.

Now, by understand I mean only if one wheels their truck. The idea of any slippage prior to locking is a serious concern for them. When I had my jeep I spent many thousands of dollars to avoid this, the pursuit of differential lockers (from lunchbox lockers, to detriots, to ARBs), and upgrades to my transfer case (4:1 front half replacement, wide chain kit, and 2 low kit). These upgrades we all in the hopes of gaining better traction and strength.

My financial situation doesn't afford me the ability to wheel such an expensive truck, so for me, the ability to have 4 Auto for on road bad weather days (rainy days) is a huge bonus.

EDIT: Just like any other vehicle for wheeling, you have to pay to play (upgrade the weak spots). Swap out the transfer case, and find out what needs to be done to prevent computer issues with the swap. But I'll bet you would find better success by putting gear driven limited slips or better yet lockers in the axles (both axles, not just the rear) before worrying about the transfer case.

 

[ColdCase]

I can agree with this, while I do understand the argument.

Now, by understand I mean only if one wheels their truck.

I believe many of the complaints here are from those that maneuver trailers on slippery surfaces (grass) or those starting out on steep snow/ice covered hills and would prefer not to loose traction to spinning. There may be other situations. I suppose less than 1% of owners care.

FCA wouldn't have to spend a lot of money for this (at least for the 1500) as they could just use the Jeep transfer case and the newer ELSD rear end (its the same case GM uses in their light trucks and the ELSD uses a electric motor actuated clutch pack which locks in anticipation of spin). Not perfect, but perhaps better.

There may be other factors, but my JGC runs circles around my RAM in snowy or otherwise slippery conditions and with much less drama.

 

[JPT]

I believe many of the complaints here are from those that maneuver trailers on slippery surfaces (grass) or those starting out on steep snow/ice covered hills and would prefer not to loose traction to spinning. There may be other situations. I suppose less than 1% of owners care.

Makes sense, I agree this can be an issue. I really meant off road not wheeling, but wrote it wrong.

It really is a very very small minority. Risk vs. Reward, it is more Rewarding on road to have the setup they picked, it is easier for that 1% to modify their rigs vs 99% to modify to have a safe non-damaging on road all wheel drive option.

Perhaps there is a way to add a locking switch for these TC, someone with the know how will be able to figure it out. Flip the switch, and stays locked until you turn off the switch.

FCA wouldn't have to spend a lot of money for this (at least for the 1500) as they could just use the Jeep transfer case and the newer ELSD rear end (its the same case GM uses in their light trucks and the ELSD uses a electric motor actuated clutch pack which locks in anticipation of spin). Not perfect, but perhaps better.

In the past the NP231 (used in the wranglers) was used in the 1500 trucks with a heavy duty chain (I upgraded my wrangler TC with the upgraded wide chain when I added a teraflex 4:1 front half). So it is very possible, and has been done in the past.

There may be other factors, but my JGC runs circles around my RAM in snowy or otherwise slippery conditions and with much less drama.

Yeah, there are too many other factors to blame this on the TC. Tires, Wheelbase, Weight Bias, all play too much of a role to determine. You would have to take 2 equally equipt trucks 1 with the 44 the other with the 45 and compare to blame it on the TC.

I have never seen a Pickup do as well in the snow as the Cherokees and Wranglers, I think it is the shorter wheelbase.