Blackstone - used oil analysis

[Burla]

And here I was thinking that a catch can was a waste of money, time, and did nothing to benefit the health and longevity of ones engine

You got a sharp mouth on you, I like it, more Canadians in the forum!

 

[Wild one]

That was from diesel which in history had water issues, trust me in the 80's when I started driving a rig we worried about it. Diesel has came a long way baby. Gas never had moisture issue except for leaky tanks or accidents with fueling trucks getting water in their tank.

A Water Seperator on a Diesal was a totally differant thing then an Air / Oil Seperator .They worked on the principle of water being heavier then diesal,even gas engines had them in the early days,remember the old clear float bowls on the bottom of carbs,that you used to have empty occassionally

 

[CanuckRam1313]

A Water Seperator on a Diesal was a totally differant thing then an Air / Oil Seperator .They worked on the principle of water being heavier then diesal,even gas engines had them in the early days,remember the old clear float bowls on the bottom of carbs,that you used to have empty occassionally

Now we're really showing our vintageness...lol
I myself am between vintage and antique

 

[CanuckRam1313]

You got a sharp mouth on you, I like it, more Canadians in the forum!

 

[HEMIMANN]

That was from diesel which in history had water issues, trust me in the 80's when I started driving a rig we worried about it. Diesel has came a long way baby. Gas never had moisture issue except for leaky tanks or accidents with fueling trucks getting water in their tank.

I guess you can call a catch can an oil separator, but nobody really worries about water in gas engine. But that was our main worry, we could care less about oil in our fuel, that only mattered at start up and we had glow plugs anyhow.

Yep - we used to run engine breather tubes out the front of the generator sets under the radiator so the radiator fins wouldn't get oil-misted. Generator engines are blower fans, not sucker fans. Ain't no highway air flow on a stationary engine. They make their own wind - so radiators and fans are huge.

My old 12V 6B5.9T Ram routed the breather tube straight down at the road.

The good old day.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

Yep - we used to run engine breather tubes out the front of the generator sets under the radiator so the radiator fins wouldn't get oil-misted. Generator engines are blower fans, not sucker fans. Ain't no highway air flow on a stationary engine. They make their own wind - so radiators and fans are huge.

My old 12V 6B5.9T Ram routed the breather tube straight down at the road.

The good old day.

Remember the breather tube's on the old Detroit 2-strokes and Series 2000 & 4000 engines!

 

[Wild one]

Yep - we used to run engine breather tubes out the front of the generator sets under the radiator so the radiator fins wouldn't get oil-misted. Generator engines are blower fans, not sucker fans. Ain't no highway air flow on a stationary engine. They make their own wind - so radiators and fans are huge.

My old 12V 6B5.9T Ram routed the breather tube straight down at the road.

The good old day.

If you ever get a chance to look inside a 5.7 cars intake manifold,you'll see a glorified breather tube on the pcv port.You can't see it on the trucks intakes or the 6.4 car intakes,as it's far enough in on those intakes as to be out of sight,but on the 5.7 car intake,which has a straight inlet tube,it's easily seen and reached.
You can see where the pcv hose is routed to on the 5.7 car intake,and if you have the throttle body off,you can reach it easily,it's just a glorified old road draft tube,that sticks out into the manifold about 3",to create a vaccumn for the pcv system

 

[HEMIMANN]

Yeah, idk what they did with the goofy 6.4 pcv.

Concept is simple - route crankcase vent to combustion air intake with pcv check valve in between.

Why the big mystery with this motor? I don't understand whe two ports come out with an external breather kit.

 

[BLUKTY2]

This is just a FYI for those of you that might be on the fence about what testing lab to use.

The last time I used BS was last October. It took just over 3 weeks from mailing to receiving the results.

I recently sent off a sample to Oil Analyzers, using the prepaid postage option. The sample took 8 days to arrive at the lab (UPS Ground from Alaska) and I got the results 2 days later; 10 days total. Plus, I got real data on fuel dilution, which was the primary reason for the sample analysis. Personally, I will be sticking with OA for future UOA's.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

Just in from Blackstone.

HPL SC 0W30 & RP 20-820 of used
10,200Km's of all winter usage.

Thoughts?

Edit**
Is it felt that one could go further than the 6,338 miles I did on this oil & filter combo?

 

[HEMIMANN]

This is just a FYI for those of you that might be on the fence about what testing lab to use.

The last time I used BS was last October. It took just over 3 weeks from mailing to receiving the results.

I recently sent off a sample to Oil Analyzers, using the prepaid postage option. The sample took 8 days to arrive at the lab (UPS Ground from Alaska) and I got the results 2 days later; 10 days total. Plus, I got real data on fuel dilution, which was the primary reason for the sample analysis. Personally, I will be sticking with OA for future UOA's.

Thank you for sharing. That is the service through Amsoil, yes? Or do they have an independent website?

 

[HEMIMANN]

Just in from Blackstone.

HPL SC 0W30 & RP 20-820 of used
10,200Km's of all winter usage.

Thoughts?

First, I attached a picture so others don't have to download a file onto their drive.

For USA members, 10,200 Km is 6,338 miles.

The report is very strong results with the sole exception of elevated copper, which we have seen in early engine hours. This engine is still in early hour life, since the oil was changed @ 24,000 Km = 14,913 miles. It's interesting though, that high iron break-in wear wasn't present also. The Hemi has always been an early wear metals drama queen, maybe because tolerances were very tight (conjecture)?

You didn't have a VOA from the UOA oil, so can't tell the % shear down / volatility evaporation of the 0W. I did this some years ago and posted here, the viscosity reduced ~8% in 4,600 miles which is acceptable for winter use. I did they same with 5W-30 in summer (VOA & UOA) and there was NO CHANGE at all in viscosity ~5,000 mile VOA in very hot summer weather and 7,000 lb trailer towing. This is why so many of us use Red Line 5W-30 where temperatures are moderate to very hot. I am glad to see a final used viscosity of 11.62 cSt @ 100 deg C after all the worry that their 0W-30 reformulation to API SP would cut the SAE 30 viscosity down to the lowest in range in the ~ 10's. Which of course doesn't prevent engine wear as well.

Final note - this looks like Red Line's API SP formula because it has a lot of magnesium detergent additive compared to SN formula, and they stated they were reformulated to meet API SP to prevent LSPI in small turbo motors.

I always wondered why their target market included such vehicles, as it's usually non-performance-minded people that won't pay Red Line's high prices. Makes no sense to me, but then again, they were bought up by mega-corporation Philips-Conoco that doesn't know what to do with their new boutique company.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

First, I attached a picture so others don't have to download a file onto their drive.

For USA members, 10,200 Km is 6,338 miles.

The report is very strong results with the sole exception of elevated copper, which we have seen in early engine hours. This engine is still in early hour life, since the oil was changed @ 24,000 Km = 14,913 miles. It's interesting though, that high iron break-in wear wasn't present also. The Hemi has always been an early wear metals drama queen, maybe because tolerances were very tight (conjecture)?

You didn't have a VOA from the UOA oil, so can't tell the % shear down / volatility evaporation of the 0W. I did this some years ago and posted here, the viscosity reduced ~8% in 4,600 miles which is acceptable for winter use. I did they same with 5W-30 in summer (VOA & UOA) and there was NO CHANGE at all in viscosity ~5,000 mile VOA in very hot summer weather and 7,000 lb trailer towing. This is why so many of us use Red Line 5W-30 where temperatures are moderate to very hot. I am glad to see a final used viscosity of 11.62 cSt @ 100 deg C after all the worry that their 0W-30 reformulation to API SP would cut the SAE 30 viscosity down to the lowest in range in the ~ 10's. Which of course doesn't prevent engine wear as well.

Final note - this looks like Red Line's API SP formula because it has a lot of magnesium detergent additive compared to SN formula, and they stated they were reformulated to meet API SP to prevent LSPI in small turbo motors.

I always wondered why their target market included such vehicles, as it's usually non-performance-minded people that won't pay Red Line's high prices. Makes no sense to me, but then again, they were bought up by mega-corporation Philips-Conoco that doesn't know what to do with their new boutique company.

View attachment 563184

I appreciate you putting the pic on our thread here vs the download I put on.

You, and the others afterward that will chime in with a great technical response are super appreciated. I'm still learning the science of the more granular bits, but I do fully comprehend the overall gist of what this analysis on paper and from you and others affords me, and us all, too!

For some background:
I changed the factory oil at 2,500Km's and went with a jug of RL HP 5W30 and a jug of HPL SC 0W30... and did that for two oil changes, and always using the RP 20-820 OF as well.

Then I migrated to a full HPL SC 0W30 & RP 20-820 for my winter run, and ran this oil & filter combo much longer than I ever did on the previous OCI's, and I must say, my engine was extremely happy at all times.

Not once did I ever experience any cold start (extreme cold or otherwise) clatter... always smooth as butter no matter the engine temps!!!!

However, my oil change last week, I went full RL HP 5W30 and the RP 20-820, and albeit we are still in plus single digit overnight temps here in Ontario, Canada, and then into the teens and mid twenties during the daytime hours.... my engine is noticeably nosier on this oil at any engine temp (start up and/or full operating temp) than it was with the HPL SC 0W30 by itself.

I find this interesting to say the least! Thoughts?

Also, I added an edit to my initial post.... what are your thoughts on extending the OCI with the HPL SC 0W30 & RP 20-820 combo?

 

[HEMIMANN]

I appreciate you putting the pic on our thread here vs the download I put on.
Could you pls do this on our "Synthetic Oil" thread, too.

You, and the others afterward that will chime in with a great technical response are super appreciated. I'm still learning the science of the more granular bits, but I do fully comprehend the overall gist of what this analysis on paper and from you and others affords me, and us all, too!

For some background:
I changed the factory oil at 2,500Km's and went with a jug of RL HP 5W30 and a jug of HPL SC 0W30... and did that for two oil changes, and always using the RP 20-820 OF as well.

Then I migrated to a full HPL SC 0W30 & RP 20-820 for my winter run, and ran this oil & filter combo much longer than I ever did on the previous OCI's, and I must say, my engine was extremely happy at all times.

Not once did I ever experience any cold start (extreme cold or otherwise) clatter... always smooth as butter no matter the engine temps!!!!

However, my oil change last week, I went full RL HP 5W30 and the RP 20-820, and albeit we are still in plus single digit overnight temps here in Ontario, Canada, and then into the teens and mid twenties during the daytime hours.... my engine is noticeably nosier on this oil at any engine temp (start up and/or full operating temp) than it was with the HPL SC 0W30 by itself.

I find this interesting to say the least! Thoughts?

Also, I added an edit to my initial post.... what are your thoughts on extending the OCI with the HPL SC 0W30 & RP 20-820 combo?

Sure - Red Line is a 'stiff' blend of PAO & POE base oil. MUCH stiffer than HPL's all PAO base oil (except the 10% POE all PAO base oils need in order to hold additives in solution - PAO is too linear a molecule to hold additive in solution - the additives drop out. In fact I'm unsure of the PAO/POE blend isn't actually a suspension instead of a solution, sine PAO is nonpolar molecules, and POE is polar molecules).

Anyway, it is the POE (Polyolester) "oil" that is very stiff in viscosity. It's pumbability is very poor in cold temperatures, so your engine clatters if it is not made thin enough (0W). Vice versa, it excels in higher temperature, high load applications. It is unsurpassed, it exceeds PAO. It's why they use it in jet engines exclusively.

We know HPL is a great oil. We are just unsure how much POE base oil contributes to the Hemi lifter rollers and cams survival. Both RL & HPL have enough moly additive for antiwear of the rollers and cams. We don't know if, or how much, the POE base oil contributes to antiwear - being a polar molecule, it has affinity for metal parts and tends to 'cling' to them. In contrast, PAO rinses off easily, being nonpolar.

But - HPL adds a similar-to-POE additive called AN, and also has more boron antiwear additive. Does the HPL witch's brew work as well as RL? Nobody knows without runtime data. Only a few have tried HPL, we need those with known ticking engines to try it.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

Sure - Red Line is a 'stiff' blend of PAO & POE base oil. MUCH stiffer than HPL's all PAO base oil (except the 10% POE all PAO base oils need in order to hold additives in solution - PAO is too linear a molecule to hold additive in solution - the additives drop out. In fact I'm unsure of the PAO/POE blend isn't actually a suspension instead of a solution, sine PAO is nonpolar molecules, and POE is polar molecules).

Anyway, it is the POE (Polyolester) "oil" that is very stiff in viscosity. It's pumbability is very poor in cold temperatures, so your engine clatters if it is not made thin enough (0W). Vice versa, it excels in higher temperature, high load applications. It is unsurpassed, it exceeds PAO. It's why they use it in jet engines exclusively.

We know HPL is a great oil. We are just unsure how much POE base oil contributes to the Hemi lifter rollers and cams survival. Both RL & HPL have enough moly additive for antiwear of the rollers and cams. We don't know if, or how much, the POE base oil contributes to antiwear - being a polar molecule, it has affinity for metal parts and tends to 'cling' to them. In contrast, PAO rinses off easily, being nonpolar.

But - HPL adds a similar-to-POE additive called AN, and also has more boron antiwear additive. Does the HPL witch's brew work as well as RL? Nobody knows without runtime data. Only a few have tried HPL, we need those with known ticking engines to try it.

Thanks, Brother!!!!!!!

 

[Burla]

I appreciate you putting the pic on our thread here vs the download I put on.
Could you pls do this on our "Synthetic Oil" thread, too.

You, and the others afterward that will chime in with a great technical response are super appreciated. I'm still learning the science of the more granular bits, but I do fully comprehend the overall gist of what this analysis on paper and from you and others affords me, and us all, too!

For some background:
I changed the factory oil at 2,500Km's and went with a jug of RL HP 5W30 and a jug of HPL SC 0W30... and did that for two oil changes, and always using the RP 20-820 OF as well.

Then I migrated to a full HPL SC 0W30 & RP 20-820 for my winter run, and ran this oil & filter combo much longer than I ever did on the previous OCI's, and I must say, my engine was extremely happy at all times.

Not once did I ever experience any cold start (extreme cold or otherwise) clatter... always smooth as butter no matter the engine temps!!!!

However, my oil change last week, I went full RL HP 5W30 and the RP 20-820, and albeit we are still in plus single digit overnight temps here in Ontario, Canada, and then into the teens and mid twenties during the daytime hours.... my engine is noticeably nosier on this oil at any engine temp (start up and/or full operating temp) than it was with the HPL SC 0W30 by itself.

I find this interesting to say the least! Thoughts?

Also, I added an edit to my initial post.... what are your thoughts on extending the OCI with the HPL SC 0W30 & RP 20-820 combo?

Doesn't surprise me at all, in fact I'd suspect it would have been the result. We know SC is their best effort oil and is the only known clone or clone type of oil to redline, with a better additive package, of note we don't really know how the base oils are comparable but I think most of us would admit similar. I wouldn't sweat the copper number unless it goes up, the hyper moly level is partially responsible, but we wont know how bad until we see the next uoa, I think if I were you I would commit to more uoa's to set the right oil and interval and keep the tick away. My uoa's had double your copper for a while, but I would expect that to go down. Do you have more uoa's? Could you give histology of your tick symptoms and how oil choice helped or didn't?

I don't think I would extend that interval, either comit to SC and a decent interval, or perhaps try and find something like Corey did.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

Doesn't surprise me at all, in fact I'd suspect it would have been the result. We know SC is their best effort oil and is the only known clone or clone type of oil to redline, with a better additive package, of note we don't really know how the base oils are comparable but I think most of us would admit similar. I wouldn't sweat the copper number unless it goes up, the hyper moly level is partially responsible, but we wont know how bad until we see the next uoa, I think if I were you I would commit to more uoa's to set the right oil and interval and keep the tick away. My uoa's had double your copper for a while, but I would expect that to go down. Do you have more uoa's? Could you give histology of your tick symptoms and how oil choice helped or didn't?

I don't think I would extend that interval, either comit to SC and a decent interval, or perhaps try and find something like Corey did.

Brother, agreed!!! (& thanks, too!)

For poops & giggles... I'm going to run this current RL HP 5W30 & RP 20-820 combo for 10,000Km's and then get the analysis done at Blackstone.

At least this way we'll see two back-to-back UOA's with the same mileage, same oil filter, but different oils, albeit this current oil & filter combo will be spring/summer driven vs my previous only winter driven mileage on the HPL SC 0W30.

Regarding any tick... ZERO (to date)... I bought this truck new in late Feb 24', ran the factory oil for only 2,500Km's and then put in a jug of each of the above flavors & the RP 20-820 OF for the next two OCI's.

Then, at the start of winter 24' here in Ontario I went full HPL SC 0W30 with the RP 20-820 OF, ran it for 10,200Km's and this is our published result.

I want to thwart any chance of tick... so, I started with known premium oils & filter to give my engine the very best chance of success (no guarantees, I know ).

No previous UOA's on my new-ish truck... this was my very first one!

 

[Burla]

So my opinion on the matter, we need new engine wear to subside before we get a real gauge to formula versus wear. If iron and aluminum is low but copper stays high, I might consider going away from HP oils as you might not need it and as far as copper goes why not pick an oil that also keeps that wear low with alum and iron. Notice there is a lot of IF's there, stated and implied. Perhaps when you are 50k miles on the engine, you can start fine tuning the strategy. I think the moly level on HP SC is way good for hemi tick engines, even start up ticks, but yet to know if it is a negative to have so much moly in a smooth running hemi time will tell. I haven't seen all the sc uoa's BITOG and copper levels. I know we have seen people go from redline to PUP and copper dropped like a hot rock. Just 2 cents worth, it is similar to anything, you use the least aggressive approach to get the best outcome, but with the hemi it is complicated because we are all obsessed with hemi tick and keeping it away. Looking forward to your next uoa, but you will have to have something to put back, thoughts?

 

[BLUKTY2]

Thank you for sharing. That is the service through Amsoil, yes? Or do they have an independent website?

Correct- purchased through Amsoil. Having a Preferred Customer account saves a few $$. Their postage paid options are either with USPS or UPS Ground. Mine was UPS Ground.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

So my opinion on the matter, we need new engine wear to subside before we get a real gauge to formula versus wear. If iron and aluminum is low but copper stays high, I might consider going away from HP oils as you might not need it and as far as copper goes why not pick an oil that also keeps that wear low with alum and iron. Notice there is a lot of IF's there, stated and implied. Perhaps when you are 50k miles on the engine, you can start fine tuning the strategy. I think the moly level on HP SC is way good for hemi tick engines, even start up ticks, but yet to know if it is a negative to have so much moly in a smooth running hemi time will tell. I haven't seen all the sc uoa's BITOG and copper levels. I know we have seen people go from redline to PUP and copper dropped like a hot rock. Just 2 cents worth, it is similar to anything, you use the least aggressive approach to get the best outcome, but with the hemi it is complicated because we are all obsessed with hemi tick and keeping it away. Looking forward to your next uoa, but you will have to have something to put back, thoughts?

Agreed on the if's/and's/but's.... lots to consider and ponder, too.

I'll run this fresh oil & filter change to 10,000km's and get the TAN/TBN as well.
It'll be a decent comparison of HPL SC 0W30 then and RL HP 5W30 now.

As for the next OCI with report.... I'm thinking a jug of each flavor.
I did it twice like this when the engine was brand new and everything was great.

Now the engine being being broken in well, perhaps the report with TAN/TBN will show something interesting on this jug of each combo.

Thoughts?