Dont even.... Front vibration

[Sturoc]

Yup you all know there's been quite a few threads on this topic and yet I have not seen a definitive answer on the majority of them.
Most involve hunt and peck attempts at solutions.
The way I see things is every problem has a cause and a solution. Simple, no mysterious unknowns etc.

My truck 05 Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi Auto SLT w. tow package 220k miles, NO LIFT
275 Cooper Discoverer tires on stock rims, 2 years old great shape.
Truck was bought from original owner who did regular maintainance and a few repairs- I have all reciepts

Part of my ethic when buying a used vehicle over 150k+, is to replace certain parts so I can have peace of mind and not be doing major repairs for a few years.
With the 220,000 mileage in mind here's what i 've done:



Rear Diff rebuilt, new clutch pak, bearings, seals,
Rear Drvshft U Joints
All gear oil changed .

Front End work:


Left and Right : Ball joints , new upper control arms w/ bushings, Pass side Moog Bearing Hub assmbly and CV axle
*Drivers side hub and CV axle was replaced at 210K*
Bilstein 4600 shocks
Front Diff gear oil changed, carrier ring / pinion etc looked in great shape

Tires balanced via Hunter Road Force Elite machine, Rotated
Alignment at 2 different shops

reminder : Original Owner @ 210k miles replaced Left hub and CV axle (as mentioned above) Steering rack, Front diff rebuild-apparently a used carrier per reciept description .


THE PROBLEM : Vibration ( NOT Death Wobble or shimmy) between 55-65 mph in steering wheel and at floor by pedals
Accelerating up to 55 feels fairly smooth just a slight hint of vibration coming as speed gets close to 55 But at 55 its like hitting a switch and there it is. After 65 it goes away and ride is smooth.

Differential shop that rebuilt the Rear inspected front driveline and said everything looks good. Suspected the front Drvshft may be out of balance .
Pulled driveshft and vibration lessened a bit but became same as before Felt like the shaft was just transmitting vibration up to floor more.
Still driving a couple days without D shaft in, Vibration is present same as before

Odd notes : When getting in truck and driving first thing in morning seems the Vibe takes takes a few miles to get going consistently.

I have read numerous posts about mysterious vibrations etc Majority of which have no solution
just alot of guessing and trying to eliminate parts etc.
In my book problems dont just appear for no reason There are causes.

My direction in solving at this point is :

Inspect Motor / Trans mounts

Front Diff internals , also apparently there was a known Dodge Ram Pinion nut issue a few years back .

Possible early failure of Driver side CV axle ( was replaced @210k miles )

Possible early failure of Driver side Bearing Hub (was replaced @210k miles )


Longshot : Transfer case issue causing vibration but 4WD works fine,


Your thoughts suggestions etc are most welcome .

 

[Karlsweg]

I would start with tire balance first.

 

[Sturoc]

Karl did you read carefully everything that was done already ???

 

[kevkev]

Out of round tire.Or a flat spot. I had Coopers before. I always replace my cv's/ front hub bearings in sets.

 

[audiowize]

Get it on a lift or safely support the back end off the ground and run it up to that speed to see if stationary wheels up front eliminate the vibration.

Having a shop do a road force balance on your tires may be the place to start.

 

[Sturoc]

I wrote a lot of info in my post but you will see that Road Force balance was done with no difference after.

I do suspect the driver side CV axle since that and the bearing hub were done 12k ago and who knows what quality parts that shop used. Per the receipt it's a regular auto repair place and I don't even think they are in business anymore.
I gave those parts on left side benefit of doubt being only a couple years old.

Diff shop did put it up in the air ran it in 2wd and 4 wd. But I am not sure this is an accurate test since there is no load on drivetrain i.e. no weight or force as if on ground/road.

Keep in mind the vibration is at the floor under the pedals area and also in the steering wheel - feels like the vibration when you are holding say an orbital sander just not as severe since its coming from underneath somewhere.

 

[audiowize]

Grab the front axles on the diff ends and give them a hard shake. They will move a little, but if the stub shafts are worn they may move a lot. You can pull the CV shafts and go for a drive without them; that would be the most informative test!

I had a similar noise that ended up being worn CV axles/stub shafts. That repair isn't all that fun, but it's not impossible either. A shop not familiar with Dodge issues may not have known to do the stub shafts when doing the CV axles.

 

[Sturoc]

Grab the front axles on the diff ends and give them a hard shake. They will move a little, but if the stub shafts are worn they may move a lot. You can pull the CV shafts and go for a drive without them; that would be the most informative test!

I had a similar noise that ended up being worn CV axles/stub shafts. That repair isn't all that fun, but it's not impossible either. A shop not familiar with Dodge issues may not have known to do the stub shafts when doing the CV axles.

Thats an interesting cause to check out. I recently watched a YT vid showing how to remove that inner axle. It looks like tap out the retainer pin but not all the way out, then pull the spider cluster pin, push the axel in to remove the clip and just slide her out. One side at a time of course otherwise you lose the spiders and have to deal with shimming them back in etc.
Coincidently some YT comments were talking about the exact same problem I am having . I'll check for play in morning

 

[audiowize]

Yes, I did this earlier this year. A 6" piece of 3/16" steel rod is very helpful for tapping out the pin inside the diff so you can do this. Yes, push one shaft in a little and push the snap ring off it, then slide it out and replace it, then the other side.

If I ever had my CV axles off again, I would be wrapping 10-20 turns of teflon tape over the splines, then smashing the axles on. Even with brand new stub shafts and brand new CV axles, they aren't 100% stable like a CV axle would be with the splines on the inside.

 

[Sturoc]

Checked both front CV axles very little play pretty tight on spline too.
Truck went to ales Schwab tire place to have them thoroughly check the rubber and rims
They said rubber looked good and not worn beyond normal.
But found 3 tires out of balance along with Front and Rear pass side rims slightly bent.
They moved the front bent rim to rear drivers side.
Now there is only vibration in wheel at 50-55. But somewhat less intense.

Their suggestion is replace rims

Meanwhile I am having the front Drvshft balanced and U joint replace weeks while it still out of truck . As mentioned it has been out for a couple weeks while trying to diagnose this issue.

 

[Karlsweg]

Checked both front CV axles very little play pretty tight on spline too.
Truck went to ales Schwab tire place to have them thoroughly check the rubber and rims
They said rubber looked good and not worn beyond normal.
But found 3 tires out of balance along with Front and Rear pass side rims slightly bent.
They moved the front bent rim to rear drivers side.
Now there is only vibration in wheel at 50-55. But somewhat less intense.

Their suggestion is replace rims

Meanwhile I am having the front Drvshft balanced and U joint replace weeks while it still out of truck . As mentioned it has been out for a couple weeks while trying to diagnose this issue.

So I guess ,even though I read carefully, you had a balance issue like I thought!

 

[chri5k]

You had road force balance done. What was the residual road force after balancing? Ask for the print out or have them write it down. I think more than 20 Lbs or so will create problems at certain speeds. Also, many places use the machine but don't bother to dismount and remount the tire to get road force to a minimum. Place small indiscrete marks on the tire and rim before taking it for road force balance. Check the marks after the balance. If they are still aligned chances are they did not actually perform the road force balance correctly. The Firestone place I went to used the road force machine but the technicians did not place the load roller on the tire. I told the manager and he denied it. I showed him the cell phone video and he refunded my money. You have to watch them every minute.

I placed a GoPro camera on a suction cup mount under the truck to see what might be vibrating. I could see it was a tire. Even after road force balancing that darn Cooper tire was still vibrating. Basically the bead was not concentric with the tread. They could rotate it all day long on the rim and still not get road force below 40 Lbs. I looked into having the tread shaved to eliminate the concentricity problem but in the end it costs about 1/2 the price of new tires. I replaced the whole set with Michelin Defender LTX's and it runs smooth. The tire place near me has a 30 day ride guarantee. If they don't ride smooth they will replace them or refund your money.

If you have steel wheels with the chrome cladding that can cause an issue when they use the cones to put the wheel on the balance machine. Sometimes the cladding does not allow the cone to center the wheel properly on the balance machine spindle. The hole in the center of the wheel is not concentric with the lug bolt circle. The tire balances fine on the machine but when it is held to hub with the lug nuts it is now off center from where it was balanced. Ask the shop to balance chrome clad wheels using a pin plate. This metal plate has a series of holes that match the bolt pattern of the wheel. The technician places the pins in the holes that correspond to your lug holes and tightens the wheel to the pin plate with the lug nuts. The center of the pin plate goes on the spindle of the balance machine. Now the lug bolt circle is concentric with the machine spindle.

 

[Sturoc]

I watched the one Firestone I took it to do their 'Road Force balance' and all the kid did was put it on the machine and spin along with using the roller . Which is why I went to Les Schwab . The Scwab rep told me exactly how they do it by checking for rim and tire true, breaking the bead , etc. Les Schwab seems to have their act together where as the other shops that use a machine such as the Hunter Elite, dont know how to actually do a real Road Force balance accurately... if at all.
Meanwhile the vibe is still present but with not much $ in back at the moment I cant spring for new tires /rims. I have to do a 800 mile drive this week and as long as I stay away from the speed range - which should be easy to do- I am thinking she'll probably make it no problem . Unless you guys can think of any reason not to ?

 

[Sturoc]

Karl did you read carefully everything that was done already ???

Understand that the tires were balanced first thing before any other work was done and was told the balance was set. So with that, I moved on to other suspects.
This later work done was , in addition to trying to fix the vibtration, to ' reset to 0' key components that would wear out in the next few years so that i would not have to worry bout things like bearings, Diff gears, front end and suspension parts breaking or causing trouble when cruising across the desert / mountain passes etc etc . At this mileage 220k, we caught several issues that indeed needed attention.

 

[kmrtnsn]

What kind of road surface and the speed of occurance?

 

[Sturoc]

What kind of road surface and the speed of occurance?

All types of raod surfaces new pavement / concrete / Asphalt ? Old road..makes no difference

50-65 and then smooths out but I noticed when doing a interstate drive of several hours the other day it picked back up again at 80-85 and then smoothed out at 90

 

[kmrtnsn]

All types of raod surfaces new pavement / concrete / Asphalt ? Old road..makes no difference

50-65 and then smooths out but I noticed when doing a interstate drive of several hours the other day it picked back up again at 80-85 and then smoothed out at 90

If road surface, tires and wheels, have all been eliminated as the source then I'd turn my attention to front brake rotors. Any shake while braking?

 

[Sturoc]

Updating
Rear Driveshaft was way out of balance
Dan's Driveline in Vegas rebalanced and that solved it.
Good ting I didnt spend 1000 bucks on new tires etc !

 

[Daw14]

Glad you got it fixed,thanks for sharing your results with us.

 

[NOV87]

You had road force balance done. What was the residual road force after balancing? Ask for the print out or have them write it down. I think more than 20 Lbs or so will create problems at certain speeds. Also, many places use the machine but don't bother to dismount and remount the tire to get road force to a minimum. Place small indiscrete marks on the tire and rim before taking it for road force balance. Check the marks after the balance. If they are still aligned chances are they did not actually perform the road force balance correctly. The Firestone place I went to used the road force machine but the technicians did not place the load roller on the tire. I told the manager and he denied it. I showed him the cell phone video and he refunded my money. You have to watch them every minute.

I placed a GoPro camera on a suction cup mount under the truck to see what might be vibrating. I could see it was a tire. Even after road force balancing that darn Cooper tire was still vibrating. Basically the bead was not concentric with the tread. They could rotate it all day long on the rim and still not get road force below 40 Lbs. I looked into having the tread shaved to eliminate the concentricity problem but in the end it costs about 1/2 the price of new tires. I replaced the whole set with Michelin Defender LTX's and it runs smooth. The tire place near me has a 30 day ride guarantee. If they don't ride smooth they will replace them or refund your money.

If you have steel wheels with the chrome cladding that can cause an issue when they use the cones to put the wheel on the balance machine. Sometimes the cladding does not allow the cone to center the wheel properly on the balance machine spindle. The hole in the center of the wheel is not concentric with the lug bolt circle. The tire balances fine on the machine but when it is held to hub with the lug nuts it is now off center from where it was balanced. Ask the shop to balance chrome clad wheels using a pin plate. This metal plate has a series of holes that match the bolt pattern of the wheel. The technician places the pins in the holes that correspond to your lug holes and tightens the wheel to the pin plate with the lug nuts. The center of the pin plate goes on the spindle of the balance machine. Now the lug bolt circle is concentric with the machine spindle.

Nice post, saving for future reference.