Engine prestart oilers

[BenchTest]

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[Area 51]

I think we can all agree that pre start-up oiling would be advantageous. But how much difference would there be over the life of the engine? Say 500k miles or more.
Would it even be a measurable amount?
These engines already have a very long lifespan as they are.
I think you're looking for a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

I don't think it's an issue of losing an engine. I think it's more about the gradual loss of efficiency that happens as an engine wears. The less wear there is, the better your engine performs over time.

 

[Area 51]

What if we build it into the shut off mode, kinda like a turbo timer ?

The engine shuts off and a return valve closes "locking" the oil in the top part of the engine

Then next time you hit the starter, the valve opens and oil flows down

Or perhaps make it so it pressurizes the filter ?

I don't know this is above my pay grade

That's not for me. I never want to install something that could shut off oil flow in a malfunction. Keep it simple, keep it safe.
I would only want something that I manually have to turn on and then off BEFORE turning the engine over. Probably ten to twenty seconds would be sufficient.
So far, I haven't run across what I'm mainly thinking about: An electric pump drawing from the sump. Turn it on, turn it off, then it just sits there doing nothing. I think there'd need to be a check valve downstream from the pump so that when it's off there is no backflow through the pump into the sump.
There are the tank accumulators that use air pressure to pump stored oil into the engine, but they don't exactly excite me. More expensive than I think is needed too.

 

[BossHogg]

Just throwing out a devil's advocate. Who can answer this? How many starts, or how many years of starts, does it take to create even a slight amount of wear, and what noticeable effect will it cause? Has anyone even seen a credible study?

How long and how many miles do you keep your vehicle? I suspect most will be driving a different vehicle long before any noticeable engine wear occurs.

The highest mileage vehicle I ever owned was a 2003 Tahoe with the 5.3L engine. I ran that truck to 300,000 miles without any engine issues, and it had a transmission rebuild at 147,000 miles. When I sold it, I doubt anyone could distinguish it from a new 5.3L engine.

How many are aware and allow the diesel's turbo to cool down as outlined in the owner's manual?

From my book of lessons learned, don't fix what isn't broke.

 

[Wild one]

Canton has been building their Accusump pre-lubers/oilers for probably 30 years or better now.
I'm guessing most of you guys have been under a rock if you didn't know you could buy a pre-oiler
They're not the only ones building something similiar, google is your friend boys

Accusump™ - Oil Accumulator - Accusump™ Units - Canton Racing Products

www.cantonracingproducts.com

Accusump™ - Oil Accumulator - Canton Racing Products

www.cantonracingproducts.com

 

[BlackGold6.4]

Totally agree with you @Area 51 , in the past I've looked into these pre-lube units but cost always deterred me but because we live close to the Hudson Bay in Northern Canada I needed something to help with the cold starts. So what I use is Wolverine heating pads on the oil pans. Major difference at -40 and less time plugged in too to achieve good results.
I think though @Area 51 I'm going to do some more research and look into one for my wife's truck. We just replaced the engine and I kept the old one to rebuild it as I'm totally positive that this engine died due to cold starts and "lack of pre-lube"

 

[landisl_2000]

There used to be a company selling a pre-lube and post lube kit for 6.0 Ford diesel. It would pre-lube and cool the turbo after shut down. I should have bought one before they stopped selling them. I would like one for my 6.7. The thing would pump for 3 or so minutes after shut down.

 

[Hootbro]

I'm 1000% in agreement. I've said this for years. Why isn't this at least an available factory option for vehicles? Billions of hours of documentation has been put together documenting startup wear and what has been done to address it? Simple pressurized pump that fires up with key on (like the fuel pump) seems like an easy fix.

Offering a pre lube device as a factory option would basically be an admission there is a problem as is and they are not going to do that in any way shape or form.

 

[Light299]

I wonder how much oil is pumped by the oil pump in 1 rotation of the crank? How many rotations of the crank does it take to fill the entire oiling system?

When you turn the starter, are the injectors/ignition firing right away, or are there a few rotations the computer uses to prepare?

I guess MOPAR has had (what used to be) an unusual mount of engine failures (then again look at GM's L87 or Toyota's iForce). I'm used to an engine being "worn out" cause of its rings (or lack thereof) I don't think preoiling will help with that...

 

[Rustbelt Bob]

This Old Guy Remembers A Refrain From A Tune That Said "If You've Got The Money,Honey,I've Got The Time..!!"
To me,if nothing else,this Topic Thread helped get the post count up in this "Digital Place"..!! It's jogged Fine Folks' Memories about looking into the Subject. Personally,I've got a 3.6 "Penta-Chance" in the 2020 Pacifica and a "Prehistoric 5.7 Hemi" in the 2005 half ton. Due to this Thread jogging my noggin',I'll be revisiting my searches for Pre-Oilers..!! Thanx..!!

 

[KerryinTN]

I like the idea, but as a redundancy as well. I had an oil pump go bad on my 87 S10 with only 80k miles and it killed the engine. If engines had redundant oil pumps, one mechanical and one electrical, this would be almost unheard of.

I would design it such that the electric oil pump primed for 2 seconds just like the fuel pump when you moved the key to the run position before starting.

 

[thewanderer]

I think we'd all agree that a lot of engine wear happens upon startup, especially when your vehicle has sat for a while.
Why isn't it common for vehicles to have a system that pre-pressurizes oil delivery, so critical surfaces don't have to wait for lube? I've seen the pressurized tanks, such as Summit Racing has, but I never see them installed on road vehicles other than some commercial vehicles. It seems so advantageous, to me, that I wonder why everyone isn't installing these on their trucks. They aren't very expensive and diesel engines are very expensive. What am I missing? If I ever have an engine built, I think pre-oiling before every start would be a no-brainer.

I was thinking an electric pump, taking oil from the pan, with a toggle switch in the cab so I can control it while watching the oil pressure gauge would be best (as long as it doesn't suck any air and froth up the oil).

Yes, I did a search first.

Why not put a reservoir on an oil pressure line with a solenoid that is open when key is on, closed when key off? Turn key on, solenoid opens and pressurizes the system, and refills when engine is running? Fewer parts, no driver interaction needed, no knowledge needed, it just works.

 

[ramfart]

Engines have come a long way over time. Original engines used a dip system to oil things (talk about "dry start"), then oil pumps took over. Over time oil's were improved with "additive packages"and now are synthetic. Metal's and machining are the best we've ever had and with computers and fuel management engines last virtually forever. The best way is just keep clean oil, change regularly. There are also oil filters (toilet paper) that super clean's your oil and that would help the engine more than a pre oiler.

 

[LouM]

Why not put a reservoir on an oil pressure line with a solenoid that is open when key is on, closed when key off? Turn key on, solenoid opens and pressurizes the system, and refills when engine is running? Fewer parts, no driver interaction needed, no knowledge needed, it just works.

Accu sump

 

[LouM]

This is/has been done for decades on large stationary engines.
Here are links too 3 systems for auto and truck use, it's not a new idea and has been used for a long time.
I would love to see it used on more engines from the factory.
Then the accu-sump idea has been around for a long time, I saw many of those being used on SCCA road racers 50 years ago,
they had a manual or electric valve. While racing the valve was kept open to add oil to the lube passages if the engine sucked air on the turns and then prior to shuting down the valve would be closed retaining a good shoot of oil which would be dumped to the engine as you started to fire it up.
https://www.paragonproducts.net/products/pre-lube_pumps.html
https://www.rpmindustries.com/engine-prelube-system.html
https://infinityaerospace.com/product/other/pre-oiler-and-back-up-engine-oil-pump/

 

[Tribalreaper]

I think we'd all agree that a lot of engine wear happens upon startup, especially when your vehicle has sat for a while.
Why isn't it common for vehicles to have a system that pre-pressurizes oil delivery, so critical surfaces don't have to wait for lube? I've seen the pressurized tanks, such as Summit Racing has, but I never see them installed on road vehicles other than some commercial vehicles. It seems so advantageous, to me, that I wonder why everyone isn't installing these on their trucks. They aren't very expensive and diesel engines are very expensive. What am I missing? If I ever have an engine built, I think pre-oiling before every start would be a no-brainer.

I was thinking an electric pump, taking oil from the pan, with a toggle switch in the cab so I can control it while watching the oil pressure gauge would be best (as long as it doesn't suck any air and froth up the oil).

Yes, I did a search first.

The pressurized oil tanks Summit and Jegs sale is for racing basically used when oil pressure drops in the race car engine you turn on the valve to add more oil to the engine to try to build the pressure back up I know from working on stock cars

 

[RamRigger]

Daw14 "
You can hold the fuel pedal to the floor , this activates clear flood mode.
Basically will not start but cranks , allowing oil pressure to build before it starts."

Which years and models are you referring to?

 

[FIRE UP]

More like a second or less. And, it takes days, not a couple of hours.
We own one. 14 years, 150k miles and still going strong.

Well,
We too have a Pentastar in a '15 Jeep JKUR and YES, it does rattle quite a bit for anywhere from 1-3 seconds up start up.
First off, ANY engine would benefit from a pre-oiling system, gas or diesel. The design of a particular engine and or it's oiling or oil filter system are contributing factors. The research and development, design, manufacturing of, and installation of a pre-oiling system in all reality really wouldn't benefit ANY engine/auto manufacturer in present day. They, all of them, have plenty of statistics and history of their engines and their longevity that the cost of all the above, simply isn't warranted.

On rare occasions, a manufacturer will offer LIFETIME WARRANTY or even a 100,000 mile warranty on bumper to bumper operations. But, again, the history and statistics are there to void the thoughts of creating a pre-oiling system. Of course it's a known fact that much of an engines wear and tear IS due to "dry" starting. But also again, that dry starting apparently is not or does not cause enough damage/wear to warrant counter measures i.e. a pre-oiling system.

GRAVITY is the name of the game here. Oil will simply fall or run off any lubed parts as these parts sit longer and longer without the engine running. When that gravity affect has taken place, you have parts that are rubbing against each other with almost NO oil in between them to soften the friction. NOT GOOD! But, one more time, the manufacturers know all this and so far, it's just not be a large enough problem for them to address because the statistics and history prove it.

Based on what I hear from that little 3.6L Pentastar with 70K on the clock when it starts up even as little as 24 hours or less, yes, I think I'd sure like some sort of positive pre-lube system in place. And yes, I know all about the pedal to the floor thing for pre-oiling etc. and have used that method quite a few times. Can't say I'm all that fond of that method because it does put extra time on that starter which, is also NOT GOOD.

The "Baxter" system for the oil filter on that 3.6L Pentastar is supposed to be a good remedy for the elimination of all the racket for dry starts. I really can't say one way or the other just how effective it is because I've not been next to a engine with one, that's sat for say, around 24 hours or so, and then started up to see just how quiet it is right after starting. And to me, whether it's 1+ second or 5 seconds of racket, it's still RACKET, regardless of time and that's just not good in anyone's idea. You don't hear it from a whole plethera of other engines in todays rolling machinery

A comment was made earlier in this thread about if a pre-oiling system was an option, that a very large percentage of the purchasing folks would choose leather seats over the pre-oiling system. Well, I'd pretty much agree with that thought. But, for those that are aware of the value of that pre-oiling system and maybe planning on keeping said vehicle for eons of time, I'm quite sure would opt for it INSTEAD of leather seats. Surely that would be a very, very small group. And one more time, since the manufacturer execs would see that it more than likely would be a very tiny part of the purchasing people, there would be no warrant for the r&d, fabrication and installation of, AND THE ADDITIONAL MAN HOURS on the assembly line to install said systems.

Just my thoughts, yours will vary.
Scott

 

[Area 51]

This is/has been done for decades on large stationary engines.
Here are links too 3 systems for auto and truck use, it's not a new idea and has been used for a long time.
I would love to see it used on more engines from the factory.
Then the accu-sump idea has been around for a long time, I saw many of those being used on SCCA road racers 50 years ago,
they had a manual or electric valve. While racing the valve was kept open to add oil to the lube passages if the engine sucked air on the turns and then prior to shuting down the valve would be closed retaining a good shoot of oil which would be dumped to the engine as you started to fire it up.
https://www.paragonproducts.net/products/pre-lube_pumps.html
https://www.rpmindustries.com/engine-prelube-system.html
https://infinityaerospace.com/product/other/pre-oiler-and-back-up-engine-oil-pump/

From your last link.
"How this Pre-Oiler & Back-Up Oil Pump works — when you turn your Master Switch ON, the Electric Oil Pump turns ON, sucks oil out of your oil pan, and pressurizes your Engine Oil Pressure to about 20 to 100 PSI (depending on pump version) *before* engine start, Pre-Oiling the entire engine — remember, 87+% of engine wear for ANY engine is from just simply starting the engine because of bare metal to metal contact. It only takes about 15 PSI to pre-oil an engine, so after you see about 15+ PSI on your Oil Pressure Gage ( which only takes about 18 to 30 secs depending on your engine — I would let it run about 1 minute ), THEN start your engine. When the Engine Driven Mechanical Oil Pump catches up ( when it reaches above ~55 PSI ), the Electric Pre-Oiler Pump automatically shuts OFF via the Oil Pressure Switch ( see schematic ). And if the Engine Driven Mechanical Oil Pump were to ever fail ( which does happen all too often ), the Electric Pre-Oiler Pump automatically comes ON as an Electric Back-Up Oil Pump because of this Oil Pressure Switch. You can also use the Oil Pump to keep your engine lubed during construction, when down for maintenance, or during long down times of not flying. You could even have an external power supply and a timer turn it ON to keep your engine lubed during a vacation trip or during maintenance periods just like you do for the battery when you are away from the engine."

Key points. AKA, food for thought:
* 87+% of engine wear for ANY engine is from just simply starting the engine

* it only takes about 18 to 30 secs, depending on your engine

* if the Engine Driven Mechanical Oil Pump were to ever fail ( which does happen all too often ), the Electric Pre-Oiler Pump automatically comes ON as an Electric Back-Up Oil Pump because of this Oil Pressure Switch

* You can also use the Oil Pump to keep your engine lubed during construction, when down for maintenance, or during long down times of inactivity. You could even have an external power supply and a timer turn it ON to keep your engine lubed during a vacation trip or during maintenance periods just like you do for the battery when you are away from the engine

 

[Grams]

Many people imagine that an engine which has sat for a few days has dry bearings and that starting it without pre-lube creates unnecessary wear on those bearings. But that is not what wears when engines are brought into operation.

FACT: Oil remains on plain bearings for years. Engines torn-down for rebuild years after storage exhibit main and cam plain bearings Still Coated with Oil.
Rotating the cold engine for start does not create the Wear imagined by most people. The wear which occurs is at the piston rings…until the engine warms up to operating temperature…when the piston/ring wear then becomes minimal.

Evidence: Engines torn-down after many years of cold starts…. usually display plain bearings which can Actually Be Re-Used! (Engines bearings do not wear-out before their “hot-sections” ….pistons, rings, and valves.
Bearings can often be re-used on engines with many hours and years on them, but we replace them while the engine is apart because it’s Easy while apart,……Or, the shafts they support are changed or re-sized or machined dimensionally.

Cranking an engine with the starter …for the purpose of building oil pressure before the engine actually starts…. is counter-productive. The engine doesn’t care if it’s rotated by a starter …or by combustion…. rotation is rotation. Cranking by the starter will not promote “oil sling” up onto cylinder-walls and under pistons. In fact, oil pressure will be raised more quickly by more rapid rotation produced by actual ignition and running, which will also promote “oil sling” to lubricate cylinder-walls, pistons, rings and pins.
That will also begin the process of warming the engine up with fewer rotations. (The starter-cranking does nothing toward warming that engine and it’s the warm engine which has the least wear.) All that is accomplished by using the starter to build oil pressure is Additional-Wear on the starter itself, the pistons/rings, and the electrical system which is further taxed by longer-cranking necessitating recharge.


Short and Sweet: A pre-oiler for these engines will do nothing for you except reduce the amount of money in your wallet. (Pre-oilers were offered for expensive aircraft engines in the 70’s/80’s or so until they proved to have no measurable benefit for engine reliability or longevity.)