Hemi Ping

[Dusty]

More propane or CNG?

CNG tanks were very expensive at one time.

I can't say I've taken that good of notice. The garbage truck that comes to my neighborhood clearly advertises on the side its "clean energy" sourced CNG.

I think the utility companies (Rochester Gas & Electric, Monroe Co. Water Authority) are propane.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 104849 miles.

 

[Wild one]

True, dynos measure torque not HP, but since it's a math equation to get to HP you can't actually increase HP without an actual measured increase in torque first. As long as the gains are measured by independent (from Edge) dynos then I don't see a problem with accepting the gains they show.

I'm also not interested in peak HP gains to be honest, I'm very rarely hitting those values while driving, I'm more interested in gains under the curve. More power between 2000 and 3500 is ideal for me. I don't drag race or do stoplight wars, but towing would really benefit in that range.

But that's all a bonus as well, my first priority is seeing if a better tune can fix my ping issues.

Not really,if you take the torque measurement at a differant rpm,you can manipulate the horsepower readings .You don't have to increase the torque,to get a higher horsepower reading,if you increase the rpm from one pull to another pull. That's how they make a cold air intake show a 20 or 30 horsepower increase,to suck in unsuspecting customers,lol

 

[Wild one]

I don't understand what they're doing. In the instructions sent with my ECM, it clearly states 91 octane is necessary ONLY with the performance tune. Period. Did you ask why their email doesn't match their manual?

Did they upgrade the tow tune? Did they err in the original tune? Do they not know wtf they're talking about? IDK
I don't hear knocking on 89 when towing, nor do my passengers (who can hear better than me). That doesn't mean it's not detonating though - by the time you hear the knock, it's way too heavy. Which is why they use knock sensors today. These pick up the first signs of detonating and reduce ignition timing. But the way they program the reduction is problematic - by allowing repeated knocking until finally settling on a long term timing reduction. Not. Good.

Why doesn't Ram tune to the edge? Fuel economy. IDK what EPA requirements are, I'd thought their were none for heavy duty trucks, but clearly they install features to reduce fuel consumption, so maybe heavy duty vehicles count against the total models CAFE mileage? And this is why I bought the edge - to have a tune the way an old time engine would be from the get-go, and the EPA economy tune for dead-heading around town. I did not benchmark the difference in MPG between tow and economy tunes when deadheading. Maybe I should?

This is only an off the cuff idea,but i wonder if their octane requirements are differant between the 5.7 and truck 6.4.The truck 6.4 is a lower compression engine by roughly a half a point,and that will change the octane requirements a bit.

 

[ramffml]

Not really,if you take the torque measurement at a differant rpm,you can manipulate the horsepower readings .You don't have to increase the torque,to get a higher horsepower reading,if you increase the rpm from one pull to another pull. That's how they make a cold air intake show a 20 or 30 horsepower increase,to suck in unsuspecting customers,lol

Yes, but if you overlay the 2 graphs and see hp and torque higher at the same RPM across the entire rpm band then it's a true increase.

The main issue I've seen with dynos on these 8 speeds is that especially with the 3.21 you can't do a full run in 6th gear as the truck is governed and shuts down before redline. So they end up trying to run in 5th or 4th, not ideal.

Still, the videos I seen show increased torque and hp at the same rpm. I can hunt them down but easy enough to search on YT too.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Well, here's the "punt" from Shell I got just now.
No point attempting to talk to anybody at "Stellantis" at this point. They wouldn't talk when they were still FCA.



Louix (Shell USA)

25 Jan 2024, 22:51 GMT

Dear Brian Mann,

Apologies for the delayed response.

It is best that you refer to your vehicle's manufacturer in regard to your concern on what is best octane rating for your vehicle.

We apologize for the inconvenience.

 

[Wild one]

Yes, but if you overlay the 2 graphs and see hp and torque higher at the same RPM across the entire rpm band then it's a true increase.

The main issue I've seen with dynos on these 8 speeds is that especially with the 3.21 you can't do a full run in 6th gear as the truck is governed and shuts down before redline. So they end up trying to run in 5th or 4th, not ideal.

Still, the videos I seen show increased torque and hp at the same rpm. I can hunt them down but easy enough to search on YT too.

A 50 rpm differance will change the horsepower,and you can't see it on a graph

 

[HEMIMANN]

This is only an off the cuff idea,but i wonder if their octane requirements are differant between the 5.7 and truck 6.4.The truck 6.4 is a lower compression engine by roughly a half a point,and that will change the octane requirements a bit.

Great observation.

6.4 has 12.3% more displacement than 5.7 also. Since it's the same block, I'd guess there isn't any boost in higher mass flow into the jug short of the displacement increase, i.e., the lower compression ratio rules the octane rating and ignition timing requirement.

Surely the octane rating required would lower by some amount, as a lower "performance" engine making up for the higher compression of a smaller displacement engine with durability. i.e. - lower stress = more combustion cycles until failure.

I'm still bothered by 89 octane gasoline not being an 89 octane gasoline.

 

[ramffml]

A 50 rpm differance will change the horsepower,and you can't see it on a graph

50 rpms isn't going to do anything signficant though. Lets say you measure 350 lb/ft at 5000 rpms, that's ((350 * 5000)/5252) = 333 hp. Now lets say we measure 350 lb/ft at 5050 rpms, that gives ((350 * 5050)/5252) = 336 hp. An increase of 3 hp.

Some of these guys are seeing increases of 30+ hp. We'll have to find a specific video in order to discuss this further with any meaning.

Not saying your wrong, just saying its very well possible these tuners are doing something useful in the region of 20 to 30 hp. If other tunes can do it on a stock engine with HP Tuners, I don't see why pulsar can't.

And you're right that the proof is also in the pudding, how does it actually translate with a stopwatch.

 

[Dusty]

Great observation.

6.4 has 12.3% more displacement than 5.7 also. Since it's the same block, I'd guess there isn't any boost in higher mass flow into the jug short of the displacement increase, i.e., the lower compression ratio rules the octane rating and ignition timing requirement.

Surely the octane rating required would lower by some amount, as a lower "performance" engine making up for the higher compression of a smaller displacement engine with durability. i.e. - lower stress = more combustion cycles until failure.

I'm still bothered by 89 octane gasoline not being an 89 octane gasoline.

In New York state individual counties conduct inspections on each gasoline and diesel pump for accuracy in metering measurement. They also occasionally test for octane. A few years ago our county inspectors found at some stations not only the 89 and 91 fuels did not meet the octane listed, but 87 didn't either! And 87 is the lowest octane fuel sold here.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 104849 miles.

 

[Wild one]

50 rpms isn't going to do anything signficant though. Lets say you measure 350 lb/ft at 5000 rpms, that's ((350 * 5000)/5252) = 333 hp. Now lets say we measure 350 lb/ft at 5050 rpms, that gives ((350 * 5050)/5252) = 336 hp. An increase of 3 hp.

Some of these guys are seeing increases of 30+ hp. We'll have to find a specific video in order to discuss this further with any meaning.

Not saying your wrong, just saying its very well possible these tuners are doing something useful in the region of 20 to 30 hp. If other tunes can do it on a stock engine with HP Tuners, I don't see why pulsar can't.

And you're right that the proof is also in the pudding, how does it actually translate with a stopwatch.

A 30hp increase will show up on a Dragy

 

[HEMIMANN]

In New York state individual counties conduct inspections on each gasoline and diesel pump for accuracy in metering measurement. They also occasionally test for octane. A few years ago our county inspectors found at some stations not only the 89 and 91 fuels did not meet the octane listed, but 87 didn't either! And 87 is the lowest octane fuel sold here.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 104849 miles.

Well, gee thanks.

That's reassuring. lol

AFAIK they only certify pump measuring accuracy annually here. They could put goat milk in and nobody would care.

Did they identify the violators? They should since it's government taxpayers funding it.

 

[Dusty]

Well, gee thanks.

That's reassuring. lol

AFAIK they only certify pump measuring accuracy annually here. They could put goat milk in and nobody would care.

Did they identify the violators? They should since it's government taxpayers funding it.

It was a few years ago, but yes, they identified the individual stations. One was a Qwik Fill that is only a few miles from me. The response from one of the companies involved said that it was a pipeline issue, although I'm not aware of any octane below 87 in the northeast. I think 85 is a midwest thing (?).

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 104849 miles.

 

[HEMIMANN]

@Wild one

Contemplating some more, Mopar didn't differentiate fuel octane rating recommendations from the higher compression 5.7 to the lower compression 6.4 BGE engines in truck owner's manuals.

Do you think the compression ratio difference was too insignificant to drop the 89 to an 87 recommended in the 6.4?

In other words, you're saying running 89 in the 6.4 is less likely to have any pinging than with the 5.7?


Without datalogger data I'm becoming more inclined to run 91 Top Tier, because those corporate bozos won't answer technical questions about their damn products. I can afford it because I don't put that many miles on unlike some of you. I'm also thinking Top Tier gas certification, especially Shell (which overspikes additive beyond TT) would clean any deposits formed from incomplete combustion of 91 octane gasoline using 89 octane engine ignition timing?

Thoughts?

 

[HEMIMANN]

It was a few years ago, but yes, they identified the individual stations. One was a Qwik Fill that is only a few miles from me. The response from one of the companies involved said that it was a pipeline issue, although I'm not aware of any octane below 87 in the northeast. I think 85 is a midwest thing (?).

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 104849 miles.

Um, if lowest octane allowed is 87, how could it be a pipeline issue? Unless the issue in that case was for a higher octane measuring too low.

Any major brands involved? Mobil, Shell, Exxon, Chevron, BP, etc.?

We do not have an 85 octane rating in the upper midwest.

 

[Dusty]

Um, if lowest octane allowed is 87, how could it be a pipeline issue? Unless the issue in that case was for a higher octane measuring too low.

Any major brands involved? Mobil, Shell, Exxon, Chevron, BP, etc.?

We do not have an 85 octane rating in the upper midwest.

Since my memory fades easily nowadays, I can only remember one of the company's affected saying it was a pipeline issue. Nor can I remember any major brands being affected, and I don't remember Mobil or Shell, being mentioned. I would remember Sunoco being mentioned because that's what I've been using in my 2019.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 104849 miles.

 

[06 Dodge]

We do not have an 85 octane rating in the upper midwest.

Well ya kind a sort a do ( as it was told to me some years ago, they did the same to the gas in IA, thanks corn lobby) your 87 octane gas is only 87 octane after they mix in state mandated ethanol, it starts out as iirc 85 from refinery and it is then mixed with ethanol to bring it up to 87 octane, 89 is a lower grade gas that is boosted with ethanol to bring it up to 89 octane...

 

[Wild one]

@Wild one

Contemplating some more, Mopar didn't differentiate fuel octane rating recommendations from the higher compression 5.7 to the lower compression 6.4 BGE engines in truck owner's manuals.

Do you think the compression ratio difference was too insignificant to drop the 89 to an 87 recommended in the 6.4?

In other words, you're saying running 89 in the 6.4 is less likely to have any pinging than with the 5.7?


Without datalogger data I'm becoming more inclined to run 91 Top Tier, because those corporate bozos won't answer technical questions about their damn products. I can afford it because I don't put that many miles on unlike some of you. I'm also thinking Top Tier gas certification, especially Shell (which overspikes additive beyond TT) would clean any deposits formed from incomplete combustion of 91 octane gasoline using 89 octane engine ignition timing?

Thoughts?

I would be more inclined to it being FCA covering their a$$ on warrenty claims.Supposedly the 6.4 is able to tolerate 87 for 12 minutes at full load,but with the quality of available fuels across North America including Mexico,you really don't know what you're getting,so they specify 89 as an across the board fuel.
I think 85 is available in some of the higher elevations

 

[HEMIMANN]

Well ya kind a sort a do ( as it was told to me some years ago, they did the same to the gas in IA, thanks corn lobby) your 87 octane gas is only 87 octane after they mix in state mandated ethanol, it starts out as iirc 85 from refinery and it is then mixed with ethanol to bring it up to 87 octane, 89 is a lower grade gas that is boosted with ethanol to bring it up to 89 octane...

Touche, my man.

And because it is a blend (unless it's left standing too long and stratifies), it again leads me to question what happens during combustion. Does the ECM react to the 85 octane as the lowest common denominator in the blend if it knocks and adjust timing so it won't "ping"? If this the case, then the ethanol does nothing except put an artificial higher sticker number on the fuel pump.

Blended fuel is problematic, IMO. The are two separate molecule sets - they don't recombine to form a true octane for a common molecule of gasoline. It's a cheap way to buy an octane number instead of actually making the gasoline all one octane number.

Leaning more an more to buying 91 octane. Here in MN, it's mandatory 10% ethanol, so it's probably really 89 octane gasoline (+ whatever high octane ethanol is).

 

[06 Dodge]

Touche, my man.

And because it is a blend (unless it's left standing too long and stratifies), it again leads me to question what happens during combustion. Does the ECM react to the 85 octane as the lowest common denominator in the blend if it knocks and adjust timing so it won't "ping"? If this the case, then the ethanol does nothing except put an artificial higher sticker number on the fuel pump.

Blended fuel is problematic, IMO. The are two separate molecule sets - they don't recombine to form a true octane for a common molecule of gasoline. It's a cheap way to buy an octane number instead of actually making the gasoline all one octane number.

Leaning more an more to buying 91 octane. Here in MN, it's mandatory 10% ethanol, so it's probably really 89 octane gasoline (+ whatever high octane ethanol is).

Ya could drive 100 miles south and buy some real 91 octane ethanol free gas...

 

[HEMIMANN]

Ya could drive 100 miles south and buy some real 91 octane ethanol free gas...

What?! A major corn state doesn't force ethanol gas?!