More oil confusion

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HemiLonestar

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Ah, the herd idiocy that actually believes the prescribed oil weight has ANYTHING to do with the run of lifter failures lol.
 

Zoe Saldana

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After reading many threads about which oil to use and what weight to use in my 16 5.7 hemi. 95k miles,I decided to cast caution to the wind. I use my truck to haul my wife's horse along with my race car in the summer months. Im from PA but head to So. Florida every winter. I had the hemi "tick" which turned out to be the broken exhaust bolts, but the noise and possibility of a bad cam follower scared me. The last oil change in Nov. I used good ol synthetic 10w 30. I may have given up a mile or two on the mileage but my idle oil pressure on an 80degree day, engine and oil at full temp never goes below 45 psi. I was surprised by that. There is a good video of a fellow who does a great job showing very low idle pressure with 5-20 oil. It is his opinion that low idle oil pressure is the main contributor to the cam follower lubrication problem. I tend to agree with that so I went with a much thicker oil, especially here in Florida where we still get those 80 degree and higher temps this time of year. I also have not noticed any difference in the performance, acceleration, power of the 5.7 with this oil. If I was in the northern climes during the winter I would still use a thinner 5 weight oil but probably go with a 5-30.
"It is his opinion that low idle oil pressure is the main contributor to the cam follower lubrication problem."

No ... most agree it is more related to idle time.
 

Travelin Ram

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I have no bias, like the previous posters who posted the misinformation. That's why I looked up factual information from multiple sources.

Its not confirmation bias, its ACCURACY, if you can understand that. You might as well quit while you are behind.

LOL you seem to be qualified for Google searches and for trying to make things personal rather than debate the merits. I’m not interested in discussing further the effects of viscosity change on pressure losses and flow within a hydraulic system with anyone like that.

Readers can decide for themselves whether your arguments have merit, cleansing the web of ignorance is not on my to-do list.

If there are others who want to have a civil discussion about the pros and cons of increasing pressure by impeding flow in a lubrication circuit, by all means let’s have that.
 

gfh77665

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LOL you seem to be qualified for Google searches and for trying to make things personal rather than debate the merits. I’m not interested in discussing further the effects of viscosity change on pressure losses and flow within a hydraulic system with anyone like that.

Readers can decide for themselves whether your arguments have merit, cleansing the web of ignorance is not on my to-do list.

If there are others who want to have a civil discussion about the pros and cons of increasing pressure by impeding flow in a lubrication circuit, by all means let’s have that.

A great example of "ignorance" is anyone claiming in a forum that near zero oil pressure is acceptable. I don't have any problem disagreeing with that. Review the trigger levels of the systems. Each and every manufacturer agrees with me.
 

DILLIGAF

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most agree it is more related to idle time.

If that was the case every HEMI in -40 Canadian winters would have failures... lol...

We Idle more then anyone else. So saying idle is the issue is nonsense.

Its a combination of all the cheap garbage FCA puts in the HEMIs, there's a reason once you actually build your HEMI properly and tune it, issues goes away.
 

Sherman Bird

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If that was the case every HEMI in -40 Canadian winters would have failures... lol...

We Idle more then anyone else. So saying idle is the issue is nonsense.

Its a combination of all the cheap garbage FCA puts in the HEMIs, there's a reason once you actually build your HEMI properly and tune it, issues goes away.
Metallurgy is the likely culprit according to the engineers with whom I've discussed this anamale.
 

turkeybird56

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If that was the case every HEMI in -40 Canadian winters would have failures... lol...

We Idle more then anyone else. So saying idle is the issue is nonsense.

Its a combination of all the cheap garbage FCA puts in the HEMIs, there's a reason once you actually build your HEMI properly and tune it, issues goes away.
You think??? Not just FCA, FORD/GM 's 10 speed tranny, AFM/DFM GM, Top of the motor lifters and rods new GM 5.3's, and the list goes on and on, Toyota's new V-6 Turbo's, geez, me thinks the only thing real solid lately are the ZF trannys,
 

Sherman Bird

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You think??? Not just FCA, FORD/GM 's 10 speed tranny, AFM/DFM GM, Top of the motor lifters and rods new GM 5.3's, and the list goes on and on, Toyota's new V-6 Turbo's, geez, me thinks the only thing real solid lately are the ZF trannys,
Lately, being as I'm more specialized in difficult to diagnose drive ability problems, I'm seeing factory, YES, factory OE spark plus cause HUGE headaches. Other shops as well a disgusted customers come to me to properly fix a problem that 4 other indies and/or several dealers fail in many attempts to fix problems.
Case in point: 2001 Jeep Wrangler with a 4.0L inline 6. Other shop charged my customer $1300.00 dollars to fix a check engine light issue with surging, stalling, difficult restart after surge. He paid the bill, drove about 1/2 mile and it started acting up/ stalling/ difficult to restart it. He limps back in to that shop and they apologize but "can't figure it out" with "sorry, we did all we could".

That was all they offered for consolation to take his money. Furious, he brought it to me (referred by another of my customers.)

I observed a new coil pack, spark plugs, and a new crank position sensor. My DTC was an intermittent drop out of cam/crank signal/correlation.

So, I whip out my oscilloscope, and determine that the secondary ignition bleed over into the ECM control system was the culprit. Where to start? I then read secondary ignition waveforms, coupled with primary wave forms, and figured out that high KV (kilovolt) demand caused such a high kick that EMI was being transmitted to the car's wiring harness.

After carefully going over what had been fixed, I found that all 6 of the Champion spark plugs were far in excess of resistance (these were brand new.)

I installed new Champions again.... same problem. I installed NGK's.... problem fixed! Not so fast!

I observed a "lag" or hesitation when I snapped the throttle. Further testing revealed that the "distributor" which was the cam sensor was off by about 20 degrees, due to timing chain stretch. I adjusted it, and Viola!, the car has run perfectly since.

I have run into GM and Fords with this same problem. NGK's fixed them, too.

To quote my mentor: "A thousand dollar problem caused by a one dollar part"!

Caveat Emptor?
 

Zoe Saldana

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If that was the case every HEMI in -40 Canadian winters would have failures... lol...

We Idle more then anyone else. So saying idle is the issue is nonsense.

Its a combination of all the cheap garbage FCA puts in the HEMIs, there's a reason once you actually build your HEMI properly and tune it, issues goes away.

Idle time ..+. low oil pressure .+.. hydraulic valve wear = problems

 

Sherman Bird

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I worked with a fellow about 38 years ago. In our conversations, he told me about his Dad who was an engineer for GM... Specifically, a "work cycle" testing engineer?? Product reliability? If I remember correctly. Anyhoo, this man's job was to do metallurgy, temperment, and such studies on axles, bearings, and so on.. (GM had it's own bearing company back then, NDH (New Departure Hyatt).

This man ran tests on items for how many rotations an axle, for example would turn before metal fatigue set it and the component failed. If it lasted TOO long, they changed specifications for the content or forging, or some element of manufacture to insure that it WOULD fail (planned obsolescence).

Fast forward to these here modern days. Domestic car makers no longer keep manufacture in house as was done yesteryear; thus, a global picture. I remember reading content origin labels on transmission overhaul kits which Ford provided me when I rebuilt Ford transmissions in the dealer. One kit would list 8 or more countries of origin for all the bits and pieces contained therein.

Where are Hemi camshafts made? How about the lifters? They might come from opposite sides of the globe! How difficult is product quality control to oversee in such diversified conditions? Obviously, in the big picture, cars and light trucks DO last FAR longer in both time and mileage these days as opposed to back then. When I first started in this trade, it was very common for me to do a valve job on then-current cars at 40,000 miles or less. Ditto for other major repairs.

Granted cars and trucks were only about 10% or so of today's prices, and the cost of living standards were much lower. (My parents' mortgage was $78.00 per month! Mom and Dad bought a new 1970 Pontiac Catalina with all the bells and whistles of that time for about $3600.00. )

When I observe the absolute brutality with which people drive their vehicles at very high speeds around this Houston, Texas metropolis, and consider the vast and drastic climate environs they operate in, I'm quite amazed at how much more reliable today's cars are. And yet, people expect so much out of their cars, do as little as possible to them in the way of PREVENTIVE maintenance, and want right now, CHEAP, repairs, and have the audacity to curse the maker of the car.... "What a piece of junk!", I've heard people call an otherwise dependable car just because they failed to, at MINIMUM, follow manufacturer's maintenance schedule.

These observations made, I pose this question: How many FCA RAM trucks with Hemis do just fine for a quarter of a million miles with no major problems? As opposed to the "Tick" or flat camshaft/ galled lifters? I'd love to be made aware of the true ratio of that statistic.

My customers drive Fords, Chevys, RAMS, Toyotas, Kias, etc. ALL have WAY beyond societal or insurance actuarial norms in terms of mileages. Several are past the 300K mile mark and still going great. The common denominator? Regular PREVENTIVE maintenance. Period!
 

Ludville1

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I worked with a fellow about 38 years ago. In our conversations, he told me about his Dad who was an engineer for GM... Specifically, a "work cycle" testing engineer?? Product reliability? If I remember correctly. Anyhoo, this man's job was to do metallurgy, temperment, and such studies on axles, bearings, and so on.. (GM had it's own bearing company back then, NDH (New Departure Hyatt).

This man ran tests on items for how many rotations an axle, for example would turn before metal fatigue set it and the component failed. If it lasted TOO long, they changed specifications for the content or forging, or some element of manufacture to insure that it WOULD fail (planned obsolescence).

Fast forward to these here modern days. Domestic car makers no longer keep manufacture in house as was done yesteryear; thus, a global picture. I remember reading content origin labels on transmission overhaul kits which Ford provided me when I rebuilt Ford transmissions in the dealer. One kit would list 8 or more countries of origin for all the bits and pieces contained therein.

Where are Hemi camshafts made? How about the lifters? They might come from opposite sides of the globe! How difficult is product quality control to oversee in such diversified conditions? Obviously, in the big picture, cars and light trucks DO last FAR longer in both time and mileage these days as opposed to back then. When I first started in this trade, it was very common for me to do a valve job on then-current cars at 40,000 miles or less. Ditto for other major repairs.

Granted cars and trucks were only about 10% or so of today's prices, and the cost of living standards were much lower. (My parents' mortgage was $78.00 per month! Mom and Dad bought a new 1970 Pontiac Catalina with all the bells and whistles of that time for about $3600.00. )

When I observe the absolute brutality with which people drive their vehicles at very high speeds around this Houston, Texas metropolis, and consider the vast and drastic climate environs they operate in, I'm quite amazed at how much more reliable today's cars are. And yet, people expect so much out of their cars, do as little as possible to them in the way of PREVENTIVE maintenance, and want right now, CHEAP, repairs, and have the audacity to curse the maker of the car.... "What a piece of junk!", I've heard people call an otherwise dependable car just because they failed to, at MINIMUM, follow manufacturer's maintenance schedule.

These observations made, I pose this question: How many FCA RAM trucks with Hemis do just fine for a quarter of a million miles with no major problems? As opposed to the "Tick" or flat camshaft/ galled lifters? I'd love to be made aware of the true ratio of that statistic.

My customers drive Fords, Chevys, RAMS, Toyotas, Kias, etc. ALL have WAY beyond societal or insurance actuarial norms in terms of mileages. Several are past the 300K mile mark and still going great. The common denominator? Regular PREVENTIVE maintenance. Period!

I agree with this 100%!
 

U&A

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Oil pressure is literally the resistance to flow. You want an equal balance of the two. Pressure and flow. More is not always better.

Tho I do not condone 20w oil in many things. A pushrod V8 sure is one I would not run it in. And a hemi is know to shear oil viscosity a bit more than other v8’s

JMO
 

HEMIMANN

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Pressure and flow go together in an open loop system without a pressure relief valve (oil filter isn't the point here, the point is downstream in the engine).

Oil pressure does not lubricate, oil viscosity lubricates. But, we need the oil first, and oil delivery is via pressure/flow in an open loop hydraulic flow system such as an engine.

We are fairly sure Hemi valve trains are marginally lubricated. Anything that helps flow oil to them is beneficial to their longevity. Having said this, we can't simply use 0W-0 viscosity oil because it's also too thin to lubricate the engine in general - cylinder walls especially.

Guys have upped idle rpm to customary 750 rpm (stock today is 650 rpm), guys have installed higher flow oil pumps, guys have opened MDS solenoids full time, etc., all to get the oil flowing to those lifter rollers and bearings.

5W-30 seems optimal for most climates, based on user reports. 0W-30 for cold climates. 5W-40 for hot climates and high loads.
 
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