Pennzoil Ultra Platinum vs Platinum 5W-20 Oil Analysis

[Burla]

I havent looked in a while, but it would be nice to know a correlation between oils with TriNuclear moly vs oils with "organic" moly. I think we assume that the Pennzoils use TriNuclear, based on the ppm of moly (80-ish IIRC). When we see 250+ we assume organic.

But....is 80ppm of tri-nuke good enough? I know one of the advantages is supposed to be that they can get away with less concentration for the same effect, but when I hear my engine running louder on stuff with TriNuke vs stuff with organic (or an organic additive added after the fact), it makes me wonder if tri-nuke is only good in some cases whereas organic is better in others.

There is some paper 75ppm tn = 200 ppm organic m. This is one posted syn thread pdf. Page twelve is why I like over 200ppm moly. That is the lowest cam wear, and as we know this is the hemi's issue.

 

[HEMIMANN]

If you test a ****** oil, you are testing the vii's not the base oil, and the additives have not had what they need to function, so moly level had no time to plate. I honestly think one of the best additives someone could invent, is a couple ounces of vii's, and just toss it is twice during the interval, but I have never heard anyone do it.

So 20 and 30 weights have limits on additives to get api cert, 40 weights don't have those same limits, thus why the modern group of 0w40's were born, most of them in the 12's visc, basically a 30 weight w/o regulations. the sacrifice is usually they carry more vii's, so since manu's want api oils it is a fine line to make it the way you want it. So I prefer going out of api since they have lost all credibility with stupid ****. non api > api imo, at least for hemi's.

Agree on the dry film lubricant plating time needed to show lubricative effect (zinc or moly or whatever), but not the vii additive.

vii additive is well known not to provide film strength, and also to shear down, leaving deposits. vii's are near useless for lubrication to my knowledge, except to pass an SAE vis category classification - which is deceiving for wide SAE viscosity range oils. There are higher quality and cost vii's that provide a very limited amount of lubrication - star shape molecules instead of coil shape molecules, etc. Massive discussion about these on BITOG.

 

[Burla]

That was a real world test and they tested cam lobs to get result.

 

[Burla]

Agree on the dry film lubricant plating time needed to show lubricative effect (zinc or moly or whatever), but not the vii additive.

vii additive is well known not to provide film strength, and also to shear down, leaving deposits. vii's are near useless for lubrication to my knowledge, except to pass an SAE vis category classification - which is deceiving for wide SAE viscosity range oils. There are higher quality and cost vii's that provide a very limited amount of lubrication - star shape molecules instead of coil shape molecules, etc. Massive discussion about these on BITOG.

vii's are branch chain lubrication, and until they shear they provide film strength.

The general rule is viscosity is film strength, says the guy who founded BITOG, vii's increase viscosity. What the oil industry has been striving for is a self healing vii, when they find it- if they find it, it will revolutionize lubrication. When they are in tact, it is better then base oil that molecules doesn't chain itself together.

vii's will also slow down the rate at which the viscosity decreases in heat.

 

[Burla]

vii's also decrease viscosity, huh. Yes, thus why they are a miracle when in tact. They shrink or contract in the cold allowing oil to flow and stretch out in the hotter temps. It is why we have multi grade oils, even most pao's have some vii's.

If you had a low swing oil, vii's as an additive would probably be the best thing you could find for lubrication.

 

[Different Drummer]

I don't have a Hemi so I cannot comment in that regards. All the oil and filter discussions have led me to do quite a bit of research and reading. Just some thoughts to ponder. My two cents I guess.

I have noticed when looking at VOA ( ****** oil analysis ) different values for the same brand / variety and weight will arise from different testing Laboratories. In fact I have seen
where one Laboratory may have tested the exact same oil on more than one occasion for different customers and come up with different values. When the values are fairly close I understand that there can be variables from test to test and have little concern in the different results. However, if the values are very far apart then that is something to consider.
i.e. Lab error, production quality control ( or lack of it ) a change in formulation of oils bearing the same name and weight.

The "gas to liquid technology seems to produce synthetics that are on the low side for weight.
Particularly the Penzoil products. i.e. 5W-30 is on the low side of 30W or the high side of 20W.
When hot.

Because the formulations change we need to be careful when comparing VOA's. i.e. when the SN oil designation was changed to SN+ to address Low Speed Preignition in turbocharged engines the calcium was pretty noticeably reduced.

Calcium plays an active role in detergency of the motor oil. In fact usually the main detergent. This is why PUP was touted as being such a cleansing oil.

Molybdenum in reasonable amounts is desirable for roller type devices.

Since the reduction in ZDDP in oils ( catalytic converter issues ) Boron has become an additive
used to take up the slack working in partnership with the reduced Zinc
and or phosphorus levels.

Without trying to list them all ( as this is already long)
Notes I have made show some different values for PUP and PP as seen in the video above. Particularly the PP . i.e. Ca in the VOA I have saved is 942 as opposed to 2139 in the video.
Makes me wonder if the PP tested in the video was SN or SN+ Perhaps PP never was reformulated to SN+ ( I don't know) If it was not changed to SN+ it may be a better choice if your preference is for a high detergent oil. What I am trying to say is we must be very careful in making sure the comparisons are of the same vintage and of the same ratings. I tried to look at the bottles in the Video but did not see the API ratings and I don't believe I heard him mentioning them.

I have Rotella Gas Truck in my RAM at present and am giving serious consideration to making it my preferred oil. I have used Rotella products in every vehicle I have owned including motorcycles, cars and boats. Never had an oil related problem.
Here are some additive numbers I found for a VOA of RGT SN+ 5W-20 that can be compared to the PP and PUP.
Mo:179
Boron:104
Ca: 1461
Mg: 511
P: 747
Zn: 881
Pour point: -48*C
Anyone else considering this oil?

 

[Burla]

Also, vii's these days in many oils can be shear resistant.

viis

best way to tell if your vii's are shearing bad is to look at uoa's against known cSt value. That is what is shearing from your oil, in most cases synthetic base oil is not shearing. This should be a factor in how people should choose an oil imo.

sorry syn thread 2.0, carry on

 

[Different Drummer]

vii's also decrease viscosity, huh. Yes, thus why they are a miracle when in tact. They shrink or contract in the cold allowing oil to flow and stretch out in the hotter temps. It is why we have multi grade oils, even most pao's have some vii's.

If you had a low swing oil, vii's as an additive would probably be the best thing you could find for lubrication.

I have always thought of them as coils that are curled up when cold and then uncoil when they are heated.

 

[Burla]

I have always thought of them as coils that are curled up when cold and then uncoil when they are heated.

that is exactly what they are a co-polymer that makes a slinky like chain. The search for a self healing one continues. Maybe the answer will be many different polymers combined with something in the oil as an additive. Like sid 6.7, when he uses glass to heal limbs, well I bet the self healing vii will be more sci fi then reality, but sci fi does lead to good stuff.

 

[HEMIMANN]

vii's are branch chain lubrication, and until they shear they provide film strength.

The general rule is viscosity is film strength, says the guy who founded BITOG, vii's increase viscosity. What the oil industry has been striving for is a self healing vii, when they find it- if they find it, it will revolutionize lubrication. When they are in tact, it is better then base oil that molecules doesn't chain itself together.

vii's will also slow down the rate at which the viscosity decreases in heat.

Gorkan and 540rat dispute this, just so you know. vii's artificially increase viscosity by uncoiling with higher temperature, but they stretch under shear deformation, providing no contribution to viscosity under shear loading. HTHS is used to represent full film lubrication such as in journal bearings. HTFS (High Temperature Full Shear) is used to represent boundary film lubrication such as on cam lobes and cylinder walls.

This also coincides with my training at Mobil Oil Corporation Lubrication Engineering School. We had to attend 6mos. and graduate, fyi.

 

[Burla]

dispute what exactly?

 

[PE7EY]

One uoa should never be used as proof of something. PUP is just known for the lowest wear numbers that I know of. PUP is still cheap at 25 bucks 5 quart at amazon. I have bought PUP many times, never bought platinum.

Hemi tick is a separate discussion, you should look up lubegard and redline hemi tick threads, completely different animal. Absent hemi tick, you can make an argument PUP is the best choice for hemi's, 0w40 is great and 5w30 is more the decent choice for the 5.7. Maybe people in snow states can justify running dexos instead of fca spec'd oil.

Thanks Burla and everyone else for your input!

 

[HEMIMANN]

dispute what exactly?

"vii's are branch chain lubrication, and until they shear they provide film strength."

vii additive does not provide film strength - neither prior to, nor after permanent shear. They stretch under shear load - do not contribute to film thickness nor strength. They are a faux additive. PUP 0W-40 is the opposite of "great" - it is junk.

Much chemistry discussion about it on BITOG. I've read much of it.

 

[PE7EY]

What type of environment are you driving in? Hotter climate or cold? Long trip vs short? I live in the tropics so it's hot and humid all year long. Majority of the year the temp is in the 80's and 90's and it rains a lot.

Do you drive like a grandpa or like you stole it? My driving style is right in between... I usually cruise with the occasional heavy footed acceleration. There are no freeways where I live so it's mostly very short (3-15 minute) commutes and lots of stop and go city type driving.

Do you idle a lot? How long do you want to go between oil changes? Yes, I'd say I idle a lot, so not sure if this helps lubricate the lifters/bearings but after reading some HEMI tick threads regarding lack of lubrication during extended idling due to lower engine oil pressure, I rev my engine every few minutes to get the pressure to over 55 psi. Regarding the time between oil changes, 6 months or whenever it's required. I don't drive a lot, especially with COVID. At the moment my truck is 3 years old with about 20,500 miles. It only had 12,500 miles after the first 2 years and I've put about 8000 miles in the last 16 months.


Answering these questions will help determine what oil is best for your needs.

Currently I don't hear any ticking, however, on three occasions several months ago I did hear a couple of seconds of ticking after starting my truck from being turned off for an hour or two. Each time the ticking quickly went away and hasn't come back. So now I'm trying to preemptively avoid it from coming back, it if at all possible, with good oil and oil change intervals.

Due to my location, I don't have access to Redline and getting any shipped here is difficult but I'm still looking. Also, I'm still checking around for LubeGuard but that might not be an option. This is what I can easily get my hands on in 5W-30:

Penzzoil Platinum ($23.97/5qt)
Quaker State Ultra Durability ($21.97/5qt)
Valvoline Full Synthetic ($12.37/qt)
Royal Purple ($61.99/gal and $13.69/qt)

Which would you guys choose?

Thanks!

 

[Burla]

"vii's are branch chain lubrication, and until they shear they provide film strength."

vii additive does not provide film strength - neither prior to, nor after permanent shear. They stretch under shear load - do not contribute to film thickness nor strength. They are a faux additive. PUP 0W-40 is the opposite of "great" - it is junk.

Much chemistry discussion about it on BITOG. I've read much of it.

machine lube

Understanding Viscosity Index Improvers

from link...

At a higher operating temperature, the fluid will have a higher viscosity and will provide the required film thickness to protect the bearings and moving parts within your equipment.

There are many kinds of vii, PSSI calculates the shear rate, they have thick and thin ones, some are way more resistant to shear then others. If you don't have vii's, you don't have multi grade oils other then 5w20 or 10w30. They make a lighter weight mono grade oil into a multi grade oil all by themselves. They increase film thickness and increase cSt, along with increasing cold flow. I'm not sure of what paper you are referring to, but you can believe machinelube.

 

[Burla]

 

[HEMIMANN]

WEAR PROTECTION RANKING LIST - SUMMARY of Motor Oil Engineering 540ratblog test results

Motor Oil SAE Viscosity API Quality Dynamic Wear Protection Limit @ 230F (psi)
Amsoil Signature Series Synthetic 5W-30 SN, dexos 1 134,352
Quaker State Ultimate Durability Synthetic 5W-30 SN Plus, dexos 1-gen 2 133,125
Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Synthetic 5W-30 SN, dexos 1 99,039
Red Line Synthetic 5W-30 SN 91,028

Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Synthetic 0W-40 SN 81,863


Recall, this is the VOA only - without UOA. So, it does not take into account things like dry film lubricant additive plating out over time, nor the residual metal cling affinity of Red Line polyol ester (Jet Oil) base stock oil.

 

[HEMIMANN]

machine lube

Understanding Viscosity Index Improvers

from link...

At a higher operating temperature, the fluid will have a higher viscosity and will provide the required film thickness to protect the bearings and moving parts within your equipment.

There are many kinds of vii, PSSI calculates the shear rate, they have thick and thin ones, some are way more resistant to shear then others. If you don't have vii's, you don't have multi grade oils other then 5w20 or 10w30. They make a lighter weight mono grade oil into a multi grade oil all by themselves. They increase film thickness and increase cSt, along with increasing cold flow. I'm not sure of what paper you are referring to, but you can believe machinelube.

Not debating that vii makes viscosity change with temp. I dispute they provide viscosity-based lubrication in shear-loaded machine elements. I am not talking about permanent shearing apart here - I am talking about temporary stretching when under shear - they do not contribute to film thickness and lubricity. It has nothing to do with SAE vis rating vs. temp. It has to do with how well multi grade oil lubricates -

that is why synthetics always lubricated better - their "naturally high viscosity / temp index" without excess vii additive actually lubricates instead of just makes an SAE grade make people feel good.

 

[HEMIMANN]

I think this discussion needs to go to BITOG if we really want to get into it. vii-additized oils only LUBRICATE like their non-vii counterparts. I'll leave this here from BITOG. It gets really, really ugly into fluid mechanics.......

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/does-sae-grade-even-matter-or-is-it-hths-alone.257403/

 

[Burla]

I posted a machine lube link that disputes your thickness claim, so I guess we will just have to disagree on that one. I also posted an amsoil video and he tells you straight vii's are responsible for much of the weight in every shelf oil. He says his 10w30 doesn't contain vii's and I know redline doesn't either, but most oils use vii's and redline 5w30 hths 3.7 despite vii's and those with vii's makes my hemi tick silent when 10w30 redline w/o vii's makes my hemi tick, recorded long ago in syn thread. vii's are necessary for modern lubrication, mono grade just doesn't work. They key is to find the sweet spot.