Shocking truth ZF8 fluid

[Burla]

ditto thread in 4 gen

So when you look at stat sheets it reveals the characteristics of the base oils. And the stat sheets reveal that zf8 fluid is not what we thought, as in pao base oils. It seams to be in line with maxlife multi use instead of true performance like redline or amsoil. The issue is sense the transmissions run hot, they really do need pao base oils for longevity, and according to the stat sheet, the zf8 fluid seams to similar to mineral oils in performance to be real pao fluid. So for guys with zf8, I say do some research when making a choice on transmission service. The only thing in common zf fluid has with the real pao based oils is the price tag, you guys are being hosed.

ZF Fluid

Viscosity at 100°C 5.6
Pour point -42°C

Maxlife multi-

Viscosity at 100°C 5.9
Pour Point -42c
Add a impressive VI at 163
Very decent fluid.

Redline d6-

Vis @ 100°C, CSt 6.3
Pour Point, °C -60
VI 163

Amsoil Multi

Vis @ 100, 6.3
Pour point, -65c
VI, 159

You see below second line, pao based oils do perform well in hot and cold, perfect for zf transmission. When you look at continual use, that is the nature of the base oil, the other parts of the graph are achieved with additives such as vii's that are very temporary in service. So when they say lifetime fluid, a real pao is possibly that, but as you can plainly see, mineral oil is not when you consider the temp the zf transmission operates at. Do what you will with this info, but at a minimum lower the interval if you use zf fluid because it is not what we have thought it was in the past. These stat sheets have been illusive, can't find one for mopar fluid either, but I bet it is the same. Funny fact because of the temp a zf operates at, and the fluid specs, it makes more sense to change it more often then an rfe.

 

[star_deceiver]

The highest temp my trans has ever reached is 85*C/185*F towing 70mph up Cajon pass leaving California. Unloaded it lives at 76*C. I would not say this is a hot running transmission, in 3500 form.

Now the week or two every year of -30 and colder is a bit more of a concern.

 

[Burla]

Hot compared to rfe, my rfe never seen 150f. You have a good one, many guys with ram zf8 run hotter then that. Luck of the draw.

edit, look up other thread for information on additives, mainly CA levels of various brands.

Also, another great option is Motorcraft Mercon SP for their ZF transmission, stats look very similar to zf fluid. That is for the zf transmission and is 1/3 of the price of Mopar zf8 fluid. Just for guys seeing over 200f, there are some good options with amsoil and redline, they also are clearly the best choice for sub zero weather, or guys just wanting oem quality for cheaper you see the maxlife and mercon sp identical but way cheaper. Crazy that real pao/ester based fluid redline and amsoil are CHEAPER then mopar zf8 fluid which is no better then generic fluid based on stat sheets which do not lie.

 

[Troutman561]

So for those of us who tow often and plan on having the truck for a while, would it be worth swapping the fluid out with something better and be done with it?

 

[Burla]

So for those of us who tow often and plan on having the truck for a while, would it be worth swapping the fluid out with something better and be done with it?

Really depends on temps, if you tow and the transmission gets hot as in 220f plus or if you live or tow in snow state, short answer yes.

The decision as I see it, I assume redline and amsoil are fairly equal if stats mean anything, and this is their selling points. When you see those pour points matched with good viscosity index, it means those oils are the real deal, they will outperform the other oils in the extremes hot and cold. If you tow and the transmission is hot, as in the 220f range and up, I do believe the group 4/5 base oils will protect the transmission better, a lot better.

ABOUT RED LINE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUIDS • Red Line offers the widest selection of full-synthetic ATF on the market today
• Each offer improved thermal stability, maintain viscosity levels and feature lower volatility while providing the required frictional characteristics of each fluid's OEM-style replacement
• Reduced oxidation and lower volatility at high temperature
• Allows high-temp operation without varnishing valves and clutches
• Extended drain intervals

Click amsoils page and read that, it's just too long to post, very impressive. The only issue I have with the page is they lumped their two atf's together for info, kinda confusing. But, their actual fluid is just as good as redline imo. I couldn't say which one is better if there was a gun to my head.

The thread in 4 gen at top of link has uoa's to go with this info. As good as Amsoil and Redline look and will perform, they both have lower CA levels then oem. Calcium is a detergent that cleans and also keeps acid away, and has a side effect of more wear. So even though I have seen long term uoa's of both, in this application I would change transmission oil at the standard 60k mile mark on any of these choices. So long answer is if your transmission operates in the 190f ish zone when towing and you live in florida and the truck doesn't see freezing temps, then amsoil and redline may not be the way to go. In fact, if you dyi like sean from eco diesel channel, a real good strategy is to change the trans fluid more often with the cheaper fluids. So it just depends on how severe the duty is when choosing imo.

 

[Different Drummer]

I googled around without any luck looking for VOA on Lifeguard 8.
Anyone ever seen or have a source for VOA of Lifeguard 8?

 

[Burla]

I googled around without any luck looking for VOA on Lifeguard 8.
Anyone ever seen or have a source for VOA of Lifeguard 8?

Yeah I had same buzzard luck, you can check BITOG long threads on uoa/voa's on tranny fluids. The best I could find is factory fills on zf transmissions, those are lifeguard zf fluids, sometimes they may have different oem titles, but they are zF Fluids because lifeguard is the ZF approved fluid. Lifeguard fluid is also known as ZF Industries lifeguard fluid.

 

[Burla]

They do have a lubrication newletter for ZF for those interested. The reason it is important is because of the temps this transmission operates at.

 

[TheShiv]

Newbie here. Is it ok to mix the Amsoil or Redline fluid with the residual. Mopar fluid that will be left in the transmission when doing a filter/pan change on a 8hp70? Will it cause any problems?

 

[Troutman561]

Really depends on temps, if you tow and the transmission gets hot as in 220f plus or if you live or tow in snow state, short answer yes.

The decision as I see it, I assume redline and amsoil are fairly equal if stats mean anything, and this is their selling points. When you see those pour points matched with good viscosity index, it means those oils are the real deal, they will outperform the other oils in the extremes hot and cold. If you tow and the transmission is hot, as in the 220f range and up, I do believe the group 4/5 base oils will protect the transmission better, a lot better.

ABOUT RED LINE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUIDS • Red Line offers the widest selection of full-synthetic ATF on the market today
• Each offer improved thermal stability, maintain viscosity levels and feature lower volatility while providing the required frictional characteristics of each fluid's OEM-style replacement
• Reduced oxidation and lower volatility at high temperature
• Allows high-temp operation without varnishing valves and clutches
• Extended drain intervals

Click amsoils page and read that, it's just too long to post, very impressive. The only issue I have with the page is they lumped their two atf's together for info, kinda confusing. But, their actual fluid is just as good as redline imo. I couldn't say which one is better if there was a gun to my head.

The thread in 4 gen at top of link has uoa's to go with this info. As good as Amsoil and Redline look and will perform, they both have lower CA levels then oem. Calcium is a detergent that cleans and also keeps acid away, and has a side effect of more wear. So even though I have seen long term uoa's of both, in this application I would change transmission oil at the standard 60k mile mark on any of these choices. So long answer is if your transmission operates in the 190f ish zone when towing and you live in florida and the truck doesn't see freezing temps, then amsoil and redline may not be the way to go. In fact, if you dyi like sean from eco diesel channel, a real good strategy is to change the trans fluid more often with the cheaper fluids. So it just depends on how severe the duty is when choosing imo.

Thanks for the reply. I do live in Florida and we rarely see freezing temps. My heavier towing is in the summer but of course, not much elevation change here. I will keep an eye on my temps next time I tow the heavier boat. At this point im putting 10-12k per year with a trailer behind me.

 

[Burla]

Newbie here. Is it ok to mix the Amsoil or Redline fluid with the residual. Mopar fluid that will be left in the transmission when doing a filter/pan change on a 8hp70? Will it cause any problems?

Good question, and yes ram forum members have been mixing those two brands together and with mopar fluids and others for a decade, and that follows what they say about their fluids, they are 100% compatible. The base fluids in otc fluids are often also found in boutique oils, it is just that they also add fluids that boost the performance, but they are 100% compatible. If you have any questions past that, email redline they will get back to you.

 

[Burla]

Ravenol zf8

Also pour point -42c. They just don't tell you the pao content, I would wager it is near zero when you look at the manu's that have a commitment to pao base oils and see their pour points. They mention group 3 first and foremost.

RAVENOL ATF 8HP Fluid is a fully synthetic ATF produced on the basis of Hydrocrack base oils and PAO with a special additivation and inhibition which guarantees a perfect function of the automatic transmission. RAVENOL ATF 8HP Fluid is particularly designed for the 6 and 8 speed ZF automatic transmissions.

you see the pour point of their real pao based oil, -57f.

 

[Different Drummer]

They do have a lubrication newletter for ZF for those interested. The reason it is important is because of the temps this transmission operates at.

Thanks for the link.
I may call Blackstone and ask if they have ever seen a VOA on lifeguard. Or even a low mileage UOA on lifeguard. I will be doing my first transmission fluid / filter change within the next 5, 000 miles and was willing to pay the price of "Lifeguard". More consideration and research is now in the equation on that choice.

 

[Jesse Lackman]

The highest temp my trans has ever reached is 85*C/185*F towing 70mph up Cajon pass leaving California. Unloaded it lives at 76*C. I would not say this is a hot running transmission, in 3500 form.

Now the week or two every year of -30 and colder is a bit more of a concern.

I've never seen the trans oil temp over 170F on our 2020 Power Wagon. We haven't towed and ambient is lower now but I wouldn't call this a hot running transmission either. I read somewhere it locks the converter in every gear. Converter slip will build heat more than anything else will.

 

[Different Drummer]

Ravenol zf8

Also pour point -42c. They just don't tell you the pao content, I would wager it is near zero when you look at the manu's that have a commitment to pao base oils and see their pour points. They mention group 3 first and foremost.

RAVENOL ATF 8HP Fluid is a fully synthetic ATF produced on the basis of Hydrocrack base oils and PAO with a special additivation and inhibition which guarantees a perfect function of the automatic transmission. RAVENOL ATF 8HP Fluid is particularly designed for the 6 and 8 speed ZF automatic transmissions.

you see the pour point of their real pao based oil, -57f.

Burla,
Wouldn't you think that their statement "produced on the basis of Hydrocrack base oils and PAO" would indicate a mix of class 3 and PAO class 4?
For years now due to the high refinement ( pressure and heat ) of the hydrocracking process manufactures have been allowed to call the class 3 oils synthetic. Maybe I am interpreting something incorrectly on the oil refining process.

 

[Burla]

Yes, it is likely a mix, but what % pao? You see real pao blenders with pour points what we are used to seeing. But, you see zf8 fluid identical cold performance to generic group 3's. Another indicator is shear, you see uoa's and if you know the specs of zf fluid you see that "zf fluids" are shearing below the specs. Sometimes if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck. I believe fact sheets like stat sheets and uoa's over what someone says their product is.

You can see uoa's, clearly zf fluid is not only shearing but having rather high wear numbers. You see the cSt is now at 5.1. This is not isolated case... The main point that every uoa suggests, and there are many at BITOG, this zf factory fluid is not suitable for a lifetime fluid, lack of cold performance and wear numbers with heavy shear suggests it. Since we don't see the hot temperature tests like noack and/or hths, we can't verify what would be pao in that category for comparison in that test.






Main take-away's

zf fluid =
Average cold performance on stat sheet
High Wear Numbers
No data on hot performance
Shearing Down to Low Viscosity in use

This is not a lifetime fluid, there is nothing in the uoa's at BITOG that suggest it is. It also isn't built for a temperature that operates in the extremes like some of our zf transmissions operate in. Even those transmission that don't have temperature issues and operate like 180f and below are still having heavy wear and shear. I put this together to inform yaw'll, the stats and uoa's reveal a different story then what the manu is saying.

I suggest anyone with a zf8 do their own research and develop a lubrication strategy. I like the idea of the drain pan with a plug, and doing some fluid swapping to keep good fluid going in there, and doing your own uoa to see where you are at. Seams like there are uoa's of amsoil and redline out there, check them out, maybe even do your own uoa if you choose those to see if there is value there. I think if the transmission operates hot and/or is in a snow state or country, someone should really consider amsoil or redline. Usually I prefer redline for most things, but in this case maybe amsoil is a tick better in the application.

Since you can really do a full flush, moving to a fluid should be a lifetime commitment. Just pick one, oem, redline, asmoil, maxlife, or whatever. And overtime and with a few drain and fills and maybe a uoa, you will see if it was worth it or not. In fact, look up any long term uoa's with the zf8 transmission and judge how it is working. I think I saw at least one out there I forget. I can't do all the work, this is just a jumping off point. Even Paul Revere could only do so much, this is your guys battle, you got to fight it.

 

[Burla]

When you see a uoa of any transmission fluid, also note the labs suggestions. This zf trans is showing signs of significant wear. Was it fluid related? Dunno, but if it was maintained you would know it if it was wasn't. You see he earned a severe rating, this is why you do a uoa, because many times it can save a transmission, or alternatively it can give you peace of mind, or sometimes tell you time to trade it in.

 

[Different Drummer]

Yes, it is likely a mix, but what % pao? You see real pao blenders with pour points what we are used to seeing. But, you see zf8 fluid identical cold performance to generic group 3's. Another indicator is shear, you see uoa's and if you know the specs of zf fluid you see that "zf fluids" are shearing below the specs. Sometimes if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it is a duck. I believe fact sheets like stat sheets and uoa's over what someone says their product is.

You can see uoa's, clearly zf fluid is not only shearing but having rather high wear numbers. You see the cSt is now at 5.1. This is not isolated case... The main point that every uoa suggests, and there are many at BITOG, this zf factory fluid is not suitable for a lifetime fluid, lack of cold performance and wear numbers with heavy shear suggests it. Since we don't see the hot temperature tests like noack and/or hths, we can't verify what would be pao in that category for comparison in that test.






Main take-away's

zf fluid =
Average cold performance on stat sheet
High Wear Numbers
No data on hot performance
Shearing Down to Low Viscosity in use

This is not a lifetime fluid, there is nothing in the uoa's at BITOG that suggest it is. It also isn't built for a temperature that operates in the extremes like some of our zf transmissions operate in. Even those transmission that don't have temperature issues and operate like 180f and below are still having heavy wear and shear. I put this together to inform yaw'll, the stats and uoa's reveal a different story then what the manu is saying.

I suggest anyone with a zf8 do their own research and develop a lubrication strategy. I like the idea of the drain pan with a plug, and doing some fluid swapping to keep good fluid going in there, and doing your own uoa to see where you are at. Seams like there are uoa's of amsoil and redline out there, check them out, maybe even do your own uoa if you choose those to see if there is value there. I think if the transmission operates hot and/or is in a snow state or country, someone should really consider amsoil or redline. Usually I prefer redline for most things, but in this case maybe amsoil is a tick better in the application.

Since you can really do a full flush, moving to a fluid should be a lifetime commitment. Just pick one, oem, redline, asmoil, maxlife, or whatever. And overtime and with a few drain and fills and maybe a uoa, you will see if it was worth it or not. In fact, look up any long term uoa's with the zf8 transmission and judge how it is working. I think I saw at least one out there I forget. I can't do all the work, this is just a jumping off point. Even Paul Revere could only do so much, this is your guys battle, you got to fight it.

I am in no way, shape or manner defending the ZF Fluid. My point was that the Ravenol more than likely is a blend. The percentages of which we probably will never know for any blended lubricating fluids. Perhaps what you are saying is the UOA numbers would indicate Ravenol has more PAO base stock than ZF8. I can understand that reasoning.

 

[Burla]

I am in no way, shape or manner defending the ZF Fluid. My point was that the Ravenol more than likely is a blend. The percentages of which we probably will never know for any blended lubricating fluids. Perhaps what you are saying is the UOA numbers would indicate Ravenol has more PAO base stock than ZF8. I can understand that reasoning.

I don't think so, sorry the other thread had more details like this.. Ravenol, zf lifeguard fluid, and maxlife have the same exact pour point. They do have pao offerings, with much lower pour points, similar to redline or amsoil. But the transmission oil aint it. I even typo'd, thier real pao fluid I said F is C, so it is exactly like redline or amsoil other known pao oils, that is their pao oil, not transmission oil, which isn't low pour/

Ravenol zf8

Also pour point -42c. They just don't tell you the pao content, I would wager it is near zero when you look at the manu's that have a commitment to pao base oils and see their pour points. They mention group 3 first and foremost.

RAVENOL ATF 8HP Fluid is a fully synthetic ATF produced on the basis of Hydrocrack base oils and PAO with a special additivation and inhibition which guarantees a perfect function of the automatic transmission. RAVENOL ATF 8HP Fluid is particularly designed for the 6 and 8 speed ZF automatic transmissions.

you see the pour point of their real pao based oil, -57f.

 

[Different Drummer]

I don't think so, sorry the other thread had more details like this.. Ravenol, zf lifeguard fluid, and maxlife have the same exact pour point. They do have pao offerings, with much lower pour points, similar to redline or amsoil. But the transmission oil aint it. I even typo'd, thier real pao fluid I said F is C, so it is exactly like redline or amsoil other known pao oils, that is their pao oil, not transmission oil, which isn't low pour/

Yeah, I got confused when I followed your link because it took me to a 0W-30 engine oil. I was trying to figure out what that had to do with the Tranny juice.
What I am up to is trying to decide just what the hell fluid I will use when the time comes in the Spring. I don't mind spending a little extra for something if it is a premium product. Right now unless some new and enlightening information arises on the ZF Lifeguard 8 I will not be using it. I realize the MaxLife seems as decent as or even better in some Spec's than the Lifeguard. However, just because it is the least expensive is not a reason I would use to put it into service.
Not saying that I would not use it but I certainly would be willing to spend a little more money if there is a product that is demonstrably superior.
BTW After giving much thought to the PPE pan I will most likely use it. Main reason for me is that even though the thermostatic control will want to keep the fluid up to around 185*F despite the cooling efficiency of the finned aluminum pan, if and when the fluid Temp. rises ( >190* - 200* ) under severe work load and the Temp. control system is bypassed, it will be at that point the finned Al pan will have its merits revealed. Especially since I don't have the heat emitting exhaust crossover pipe running under the pan. I also think it will be a more robust design to work with for more frequent drain and fill only between filter replacements.