synthetic oil question

[Ramnewbie]

Even though technically Amsoil is saying their new oil is only GF-5, it was built for the GF-6 spec, they are betting their new formula will meet GF-6. Their old formula ALREADY met GF-5, the new formula took out additives so to guarantee 100% effectiveness for LSPI, the main reason for GF-6 spec. However, as stated before simply avoid the 20 weight and you will have adequate protection from wear. The entire mess of the industry and decision making owners have to make go away simply by using 30 weight oil, and a reasonably OCI. Everyone is "saying" their low calcium oils are still long oil change interval oils, I wouldn't buy into that unless I did a UOA myself. I certainly wouldn't trust a UOA from shady sources, invest in your own uoa.

I wouldn't buy into any claim of 15/20/25 k oil changes by any oil company. If I was gonna try to push my oil that far I'd do the first UOA at around 5/6k and see what it says and go from there.

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[huntergreen]

Still can't bring myself to run any oil past 6 thousand miles.

 

[69GWC]

I have a hard time with that as well, old school rules beat in my head. lol

 

[Fergusontd]

While 5W20 is fine, inside of a 400 HP truck, guys (myself included) are running 5W30. I guess I sleep a little better but there is really no evidence you won't be 100% fine with 5W20. If it works, keep using it.

 

[Fergusontd]

Won't a heavier oil void the warranty. I personally feel that a 5w-30w would be better. I use 5w-20w Mobile non synthetic.

 

[Burla]

If you use that 5w20 you will need that warranty, lol.

 

[Ram13BH]

I wouldn't buy into any claim of 15/20/25 k oil changes by any oil company. If I was gonna try to push my oil that far I'd do the first UOA at around 5/6k and see what it says and go from there.

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I have been running extended intervals in all my vehicles, gas and diesel, for years with AMSOIL and have had no issues....yes...15-20K oil changes. People need to get past the old fashioned thinking and realize technology has passed that type of thinking long ago.

Here is an interesting video I found the other day. Can Engine Oil Be Proven To Last 20,000 Miles?

 

[Ramnewbie]

I have been running extended intervals in all my vehicles, gas and diesel, for years with AMSOIL and have had no issues....yes...15-20K oil changes. People need to get past the old fashioned thinking and realize technology has passed that type of thinking long ago.

Here is an interesting video I found the other day. Can Engine Oil Be Proven To Last 20,000 Miles?

I'm not saying that it can't be done, just don't blindly go 20k. Do a UOA and check along the way.

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[Burla]

I have been running extended intervals in all my vehicles, gas and diesel, for years with AMSOIL and have had no issues....yes...15-20K oil changes. People need to get past the old fashioned thinking and realize technology has passed that type of thinking long ago.

Here is an interesting video I found the other day. Can Engine Oil Be Proven To Last 20,000 Miles?

Just a couple months ago Amsoil that used to be the highest calcium oil I knew of near 3,000 ppm lowered their calcium by over 1/2. Yes they supplemented it with Magnesium, but it is an unknown whether the long OCI will still protect your engine. The bottom line, it isn't any "brand" that protects your engine, it is simple do you still have adequate tbn or not. Newbie said, do a UOA to verify, or not and take a risk, your call your equipment. Once you are out of tbn, it doesn't take very long at all for acid to really f up an engine like the hemi. This is why you could run Amsoil to 20k miles w/o risk, this was 2013, do you even know what the tbn is today? You have a diesel so maybe it isn't that big of deal, any proven brand oil will have a long oci, but still worth it to verify.

 

[crazykid1994]

Can someone pm me or quote me on where and how to get an oil analysis done. I’m very interested


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[Burla]

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

you need tbn to determine the length of the oci, or it is a waste of money.

They send you a postage paid kit, you only pay when you send the sample back in. Get regular sample PLUS tbn for 10 bucks extra. Consider staying with one brand as well, one you are interested most, if you start changing oils it kind of defeats the purpose.

 

[tjfdesmo]

TBN is a big deal in the diesel world, as well.

 

[Burla]

Fur sure, but it is less of an issue in a diesel then a gas engine when we are talking a 10k oil change interval. You need to be more diligent in gas engines to ensure you are not out of tbn pre-10k, I have even seen redline oci's in danger zone pre-10k miles, as also I have seen many brands of oil in the same. You wont have that issue in a diesel unless something is horrible wrong with the engine. Anyone in a gas engine should do a UOA at the 7500 mile mark early in their ownership of the truck, in a diesel it is only necessary if you go bypass and extend that oci far.

 

[crazykid1994]

https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

you need tbn to determine the length of the oci, or it is a waste of money.

They send you a postage paid kit, you only pay when you send the sample back in. Get regular sample PLUS tbn for 10 bucks extra. Consider staying with one brand as well, one you are interested most, if you start changing oils it kind of defeats the purpose.

Thank you. I just swapped to redline 10w30 from dealer oil at 10000 and have about 500 on it and was going to look into testing it at 7500 to see. Truck is used usually around town with about 15 minutes highway each time. Have an occ and it seems to pick up a lot of fluid over 3000 miles. About half a can full. That was with dealer oil. Was hoping to get around 8-10000 mile oci with the synthetic. I don’t see how any company can claim 15-20000 mile oci’s


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[Ramnewbie]

Thank you. I just swapped to redline 10w30 from dealer oil at 10000 and have about 500 on it and was going to look into testing it at 7500 to see. Truck is used usually around town with about 15 minutes highway each time. Have an occ and it seems to pick up a lot of fluid over 3000 miles. About half a can full. That was with dealer oil. Was hoping to get around 8-10000 mile oci with the synthetic. I don’t see how any company can claim 15-20000 mile oci’s


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They can claim pretty much anything they want, and it really varies from engine to engine. There probably engines out there that the oil will last 20/25k, but not all. Just because an oil will last 20/25k in a little four banger is no indication that it will last that long in a 400hp V8. Very irresponsible to market as such.

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[Dusty]

After reading through this thread I have to comment that there seems to be a fair amount of tendency to recommend motor oil on assumption or myth. Equally there also seems to be an implied bias that the engineers who design engines either didn’t know what they were doing or are intentionally being arbitrary.

Film strength of motor oil is not the only criteria for oil selection. Modern motor oils are a complex compound with complex design parameters to ensure complete hydrodynamic lubrication. Neither should one assume that a higher static viscosity automatically means a higher film strength value.

Viscosity is a very important issue, especially when considering that modern engines are operated over a wide range of ambient and internal temperatures, thus having a significant impact on oil flow. For example, typical main bearing interference tolerances of .003-.006 in 1955 are unheard of today. Modern automotive engine tolerances are much narrower, which require lower viscosities to ensure proper oil flow. The word “viscosity” in chemical terms is defined as “resistance to flow.” The higher the viscosity the more resistive to being pumped. At 1500 RPM a 10W-30 motor oil may produce enough flow, but what happens at 2500 RPM or above?

Packaged motor oils from manufacturers vary greatly in their chemical makeup or recipe. Just picking one based on static viscosity alone could produce negative effects. Dynamic lubrication engineers rely on something called the Stribeck Curve, which is a scientific way to measure the correlations between internal component friction and oil film thickness. If you delve into this subject you will find firm engineering data to support the position that LOWER viscosity motor oils LOWER internal friction, which initiated the API Energy Conserving Motor Oil classification.

With the fairly wide selection of packaged motors oils, film strength and static viscosity are only two elements of concern. There’s also Viscosity Index, which is the measurement of oil stability over the intended operating temperature range, Pour Point (max lowest temperature @ flow), Friction Coefficient, Boundary Shear, High Temperature High Shear (HTHS), plus the effect on vehicle emissions. (This is a small and partial list. Engineers typically measure pumping losses, as well as flow, load, and shear at each of the single components in the engine.) I would recommend that interested parties go online and look at the Product Specifications Sheets for each of the various multi-viscosity motor oils and look at how they compare. You might be surprised!

With respect to the MDS-equipped Hemi specifically, we have been told that the operational design of the MDS system is highly dependent upon the static viscosity of the motor oil. I am aware of one individual whose MDS-vehicle displayed a Check Engine indicator soon after the incorrect viscosity oil was installed.

Best regards,

Dusty

 

[crazykid1994]

After reading through this thread I have to comment that there seems to be a fair amount of tendency to recommend motor oil on assumption or myth. Equally there also seems to be an implied bias that the engineers who design engines either didn’t know what they were doing or are intentionally being arbitrary.

Film strength of motor oil is not the only criteria for oil selection. Modern motor oils are a complex compound with complex design parameters to ensure complete hydrodynamic lubrication. Neither should one assume that a higher static viscosity automatically means a higher film strength value.

Viscosity is a very important issue, especially when considering that modern engines are operated over a wide range of ambient and internal temperatures, thus having a significant impact on oil flow. For example, typical main bearing interference tolerances of .003-.006 in 1955 are unheard of today. Modern automotive engine tolerances are much narrower, which require lower viscosities to ensure proper oil flow. The word “viscosity” in chemical terms is defined as “resistance to flow.” The higher the viscosity the more resistive to being pumped. At 1500 RPM a 10W-30 motor oil may produce enough flow, but what happens at 2500 RPM or above?

Packaged motor oils from manufacturers vary greatly in their chemical makeup or recipe. Just picking one based on static viscosity alone could produce negative effects. Dynamic lubrication engineers rely on something called the Stribeck Curve, which is a scientific way to measure the correlations between internal component friction and oil film thickness. If you delve into this subject you will find firm engineering data to support the position that LOWER viscosity motor oils LOWER internal friction, which initiated the API Energy Conserving Motor Oil classification.

With the fairly wide selection of packaged motors oils, film strength and static viscosity are only two elements of concern. There’s also Viscosity Index, which is the measurement of oil stability over the intended operating temperature range, Pour Point (max lowest temperature @ flow), Friction Coefficient, Boundary Shear, High Temperature High Shear (HTHS), plus the effect on vehicle emissions. (This is a small and partial list. Engineers typically measure pumping losses, as well as flow, load, and shear at each of the single components in the engine.) I would recommend that interested parties go online and look at the Product Specifications Sheets for each of the various multi-viscosity motor oils and look at how they compare. You might be surprised!

With respect to the MDS-equipped Hemi specifically, we have been told that the operational design of the MDS system is highly dependent upon the static viscosity of the motor oil. I am aware of one individual whose MDS-vehicle displayed a Check Engine indicator soon after the incorrect viscosity oil was installed.

Best regards,

Dusty

Not an argument but the books says that 5w30 may be used in the hemi.


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[69GWC]

Honestly more thought has been put into recommending a oil weight then what you are implying, one simple reason is alot of oils in the 30w range have a better additive package than the 20ws do as well as a better film strength not all but some.

It had been proven the the 6.4 and 5.7s take the same lifters, well the 6.4 motor owners manual suggest you can run 0w40 with out issue so there should be no issue in the 5.7 and a few members have done this as well snd nobody hss had any codes pop up for the MDS lifters .

I agree these motors are built better then years ago but no body is suggesting switching over to 20w50 or the like.

Plenty of people run a 5w30 and have a much smoother and better sounding motor now as to being on 5w20 oils.
Nobodies notice any strange oil temps change or oil pressure change from making the switch.

 

[Burla]

March to thinner oils

It is over thinking it to get into the minutia of being able to prove one brand over another, and even 20 weight versus 30 weight. Unless you have inside info on formula's. There is a way to see how 30 weight is doing in your truck versus 20 weight, check the psi. We all have, it is either the same or within 2 psi. Is anyone having a larger psi swing with 30 weight?

I do agree everyone should be looking at tech sheets first, maybe I've said this 100 times. The real issue is auto manufacturers are concerned with out of the gate performance, end of story. Gas mileage they can report to uncle sam to meet CAFE. As engines wear, they become less fuel efficient, and thus a thicker oil is necessary, read that link. No manufacturer gives a dirty **** about that fact, and every engine wears. You can stick with 20 weight as your truck wears, that is on you, I prefer to kick that thought to the curb in my truck.

 

[tjfdesmo]

Fur sure, but it is less of an issue in a diesel then a gas engine when we are talking a 10k oil change interval. You need to be more diligent in gas engines to ensure you are not out of tbn pre-10k, I have even seen redline oci's in danger zone pre-10k miles, as also I have seen many brands of oil in the same. You wont have that issue in a diesel unless something is horrible wrong with the engine. Anyone in a gas engine should do a UOA at the 7500 mile mark early in their ownership of the truck, in a diesel it is only necessary if you go bypass and extend that oci far.

Not disagreeing at all. I was a John Deere dealer 25+ years ago, and it was a hot topic. They even had their own oil called Plus 50, which had a higher TBN to allow an additional 50 hours per OCI. One thing that was different then was they had not scrubbed the sulfur out of diesel fuel yet, so fuel dilution could result in acid build up more readily. IIRC, their engine oil was blended by Ashland Chemical.