When Not to Use Redline Thread

[Burla]

Redline has proven itself as leader in the pack in the battle of hemi tick, but the very fact it does what it does also makes it not such a perfect candidate in some other situations, so hopefully before someone choses redline they read this thread that hopefully has forum experiences posted.

Note Risks in the COLD and with HIGH MILEAGE ENGINES when switching oils.

Fact, 5w30 redline is going to be thicker then any other 5w30 discussed and most of the 0w40's out there for most of the time in the sump. By law, a 0w40 cst has to start thicker then a 5w30, but they shear and redline wont shear as fast, so indeed this 5w30 is like a 5w40 in most brands of oil in use, and in many rams this can leave you piston slap in the cold. We have found out the proper redline to run in this situation is 0w30, this generally also keeps hemi tick away but leaves piston slap to a bare minimum. If you dont have hemi tick and you use redline for the additives, then in the cold you can even use the 20 weights like the manu says. For towing, I'd prefer 0w30 at a minimum, but that is personal choice. If you don't have hemi tick, 0w30's in many brands are great oils, pick one with moly might even flow better at start up then thicker redline. Look for pao 0w30's, again thinner is better so long as you have similar cst operating temp viscosity.

High Mileage Rams 75k miles +, if it aint broke don't fix it. This is not the time to try redline, the same thing that makes it good for hemi tick makes it a risky choice for an engine where the tolerances have widened. The places in an engine have developed their own film, and when you put the redline in the additives will compete for that surface, and until and if the redline repopulates the surface, it can be noisy. High zddp, high moly, possibly esters, all take time to film up, and the high detergency of redline will clean the other film out and then it is a waiting game for the film to come back. When you have noise from out of tolerance stuff, you have pressure, and mineral base oil is not what works in this area, that is the very reason why they use ep/aw additives in the first place. Now, using a thicker version of redline or any oil will minimize the need for additives in tolerance widened areas. So using 5w20 redline is a high mileage engine would never be what I'd recommend and haven't for some time as the forum experiences have poured in over the last decade.

So what moves can someone with a high mileage ram make IF they get hemi tick? Fix it mechanically, or use a lubrication strategy that includes heavy viscosity, how heavy is a personal choice my guess going over 40 weight wouldn't be something I'd entertain unless it was my last choice. If you try redline and I still think it is viable, understand the risk, be patient and see if the film repopulates, and use a thick version of it, 0w30 at a minimum.

Should you use redline in an engine w/o hemi tick? I wouldn't have, I don't like spending a lot of money when modern oils have gotten so cheap. Maybe if I had no money considerations or I was towing heavy, but your general commuter ram, it is a personal choice and the choice carry's risk if the engine is high mileage. Hemi's don't get their power in high rpm's, so high performance oils are only so beneficial. However, hemi tick creates a situation where the moving metal is similar to what happens in a high rpms engine, thus the benefits of redline are what they have proven to be.

Many rams will take redline 5w30 and have no ill effects whatsoever all year round, but what is the perfect choice for a hemi will depend on it's location and a specific engine, facts learned from this forum. Know the risks and if you have a negative experience be patient give it time to work, and adjust your strategy with how your engine is sounding. If you can avoid cold piston slap and hemi tick, then you win. If you have a high mileage ram, there no reason to take on risk of a high performance oil unless you have hemi tick, then proceed with caution and use the correct weight as in go thick and minimize the effects of high detergency. We all were in the deal together, I have certainly had things that happened that are unexplainable, as in my hemi ticked on 10w30 redline and not 5w30, there are a host of reasons why that shouldn't have happened, but it is what it is.

If you have a hemi with no tick and still want to know if there is any reason to try/use redline, then get a uoa. Either it will justify trying it, or it will set your mind at ease, 38 bucks well spent.

 

[Burla]

...and Redline d6 in 8 speeds the correct weight for this application has left some rams with 8 speeds too slippery. Now, it is rfe honey for sure, c+ in the rfe is great, but d6 is a risk in some 8 speeds.

What else guys, let the bashing begin

 

[MADDOG]

No bashing allowed.

Don't start that again...

 

[Burla]

I hope that's a joke, hard to tell, of course I'm talking negative experiences with redline oil.

 

[Burla]

The forum should have all experiences negative or positive with a product, maybe someone else should have created this thread, seams like I doomed regardless.

 

[rule18]

Product bashing - have at it.
Member bashing - no go.

 

[Burla]

This is a public service message for ram forum members because of the continuing confusion of people who use this and what they perceive as negative effects that are basically the science of this product doing what it does. Clearly there is no personal attack and none intended, and breathing that into it is just like the new software.

 

[czervika]

I'd certainly like to see the science being talked about.

 

[Burla]

First couple hundred pages on syn thread is a good start, science posted there.

 

[2012RAM1500RT]

Personally I'm not a science person, it either works or it don't. I don't care why either way, I just search further till I find what works!

 

[ramffml]

Welp, here goes. My truck had about 15 to 20 thousand miles on it and ... yup, dumped RL 5w-20 and now 5w-30 in it. I did not have hemi tick and I intend to keep it that way.

It's still too noisy on a cold start as far as I'm concerned (but every hemi has that same noise and it's not lifter tick in this case, maybe injector noise?) but once it reaches operating temp it becomes smooth and quiet as butter.

My theory is, why fiddle faddle around with inferior oils if RL truly is that great of an oil? For an extra 50 bucks twice a year I can run what should be one of the best oils you can get, so I'm not going to play the mad scientist and experiment with other stuff.

So even though my engine is not yet as quiet as I would like it on a cold start, the warm/operating temps have proven to me that it's better than the junk I was running from the dealer. I did two UOAs so far, both look great except for copper (bearings?) and will keep an eye on that for next time.

 

[RLJ10X]

Burla, that was awesome as usual.

My 2011 has only 55,000 miles on it. I bought it new. The local dealership changes the oil every 5000 miles and rotates the tires for about $32.

They use 5W-20 Penzoil, I don't know for sure exactly which Penzoil 5W-20. I think it's the blended. It's the only oil that's ever been in that truck.

I guess I got lucky so far. Knock on wood.

 

[indept]

So Burla, my Ram doesn't have the tick. It has 37k miles on it. I change oil every 6k. I use quaker state full synthetic. It has moly, maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of what redline has. Next change I was going to add Lubeguard Biotech, any concerns with that?

 

[Burla]

That is interesting, wasn't ready for that one. Generally there hasn't been many examples of low mileage engine having issues with redline, especially compared with the numbers of success. So, I would think lubegard biotech would even be of less risk, being the ester %'s and moly content. BUT, never say never, I would still say there is some risk. With the moly count high bordering the ideal moly range 200-500, does low risk out weight reward of boosting it a bit? High CA suggests that not only will biotech compete for the surface but also provide some more cleaning, so I can't say there is zero risk. With most oils I would tend to say the low risk outweighs any potential benefit, so dump it in, but you happen to use a high moly oil, so I say personal call. I'd lean towards running it because you still are under 200ppm, but maybe something like shaeffers I'd say don't bother with the biotech.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Good summary, @Burla

Got my Lube Dude Hat on - for those that want to consolidate oils, it's a noble calling 'cept now days we have so many different kluge engines it's really, really, difficult to do that. Lube consolidation was a holy grail some decades back in factories. Too many government regs by engine type to pull it off today.

So - this is a RAM Forum. Even within the RAM family of trucks, there are engines that take totally different oils - Hemi's, Pentastar, EcoDiesel, Cummins Diesel. Presuming most of us don't have multiple RAM trucks (though some surely do), why can't we use a "best" oil for all?

Diesel is a separate beast - it soot-loads engine oil at a rapid rate. Diesel oils are built with a bunch of detergent-dispersant additives to hold the soot in solution until oil is changed. What for? Carbonaceous soot is highly abrasive. If it plates out and rubs on moving parts, it's like taking a grinding wheel to the engine.

Gasoline engines, in general, don't soot load much, so their oils don't have nearly the detergent-dispersant additives the diesel oils do. Ooops! Here comes GDI (Gasoline Direct Injection) engines.........these engines are poor attempt to be a diesel with a spark plug. When sensors detect light engine load, air fuel ratio shifts lean to save gas. When sensors detect load coming on, air fuel ratio shifts to rich (stoichiometric) like a port inject engine. Except - there's not enough time to vaporize the spray directly! So you get soot in these and oil has to be changed sooner.

You know about Hemi's - the current production engines (Generation III) are poorly lubricated in the lifter and cam region. This has lead to a high rate of failures in the 5-10% range. This is an astronomical rate for volume production, not only that, the failure is catastrophic to boot. So, it seems Red Line Engine Oil helps.

Why not use Red Line everywhere? Well, it's somewhat more expensive than conventional API Group III synthetic oils, so there's that. But the real reason to me is you don't want Red Line in a GDI engine. Why? Generally, these are small displacement engines, many with turbos, to increase fuel economy. As discussed above, they have to switch between two completely different modes of combustion via ECM algorithm. If not switched quickly enough, these engines can pre-ignite. Yes, that's KNOCKING or DETONATION. Buh-bye mister piston! Experimentation found certain oil additives contribute to the issue, acronym is LSPI (Low Speed Pre Ignition). Engine Oils have been reformulated to eliminated this cause, but Red Line has not, as Red Line was never intended for little bug-mobile w*h*i*z-motors.

Red Line is a high performance oil for high performance engines, and in our case, a poorly-lubricated engine (Hemi).

But this is a RAM Forum, so why discuss it? Because a lot of us RAM owners also have bug-mobiles at home with GDI engines, that's why.

 

[Burla]

Why I posted this? Ram Forum has had at least 4 guys with high mileage rams report unsatisfactory noise after switching to redline over ten years, and we have also had 3 or 4 guys reporting cold piston slap with the thicker redline's 5w30/5w40. It is a thick high detergent oil, which explains the why this happened. It theory the high mileage trucks should get quieter with time, but the only way to fix cold piston slap is to go thinner. The good news it seams like this piston slap is different then other known piston slap applications whereas going thinner actually works, if ram forum experiences hold true. The rub, if you have both a high mileage ram with cold piston slap, you are screwed. If you go thin there is a real possibility you wont have the viscosity to keep it quiet as the detergency works.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Yep - I've encouraged members to go Red Line as soon as possible. It's relatively cheap insurance for $9,000 Hemi engines.

 

[Burla]

The other thing we do not know, is what effect is aging engines with wider tolerances gonna have on the success redline had at killing tick. All of our work was done with young NEW engines, but those engines will get older, will redline still keep the tick away? What options are their? If you go thick, you risk piston slap, if you go thin, no way is that good with widening tolerances. Hemi lubrication is indeed a quagmire that met a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. It may be that something like mos2 becomes the answer despite the risk of gelling up the sump. We need continuing and updated information from guys running this strategy, especially guys who have been doing this for 100k miles. I wouldn't recommend both mos2 and redline ever, the risk there is not only gelling the sump but copper corrosion, that much moly is an unknown.

 

[PJ Snyder]

So Burla, my Ram doesn't have the tick. It has 37k miles on it. I change oil every 6k. I use quaker state full synthetic. It has moly, maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of what redline has. Next change I was going to add Lubeguard Biotech, any concerns with that?

I have an '04 Ram with the 5.7 hemi with almost 105,000 miles. I have always used QSUD and pleased with the results. I change oil and filter every 3K miles to keep it clean. It's priced right so you can have more frequent oil changes.

 

[BlackSheepRebel]

Personally I'm not a science person, it either works or it don't. I don't care why either way, I just search further till I find what works!

that my friend is true science (if it hasn't been confirmed to WORK via reproduceable experiment, it's just opinion)

thanks Burla for the balanced update... been following syn thread (and some other places like btog). good stuff based on real world experience.