Blackstone - used oil analysis

[HEMIMANN]

Combine low tension rings (for fuel savings! ha ha) with a single fuel injector to "instantaneously" switch between lean burn and rich burn (stoich) loads, and you get............BLOWBY

 

[Travis8352]

AN similar molecular shape to an ester though, right? Both have branched molecules.

The real question is how much is used. i.e. is it more than just being an additive carrier so that it's part of the base oil blend too?

From what they make it sound like ANs are a big part of their base oil blend. Im not sure where they put esters

 

[knightjp]

I know this is not a Hemi UOA, but I know you all like your high Moly content for your Hemi oil so wanted you see what some thin GTMO 0w16 has after 5356 miles in a 2.4L DI engine... I was a bit surprised to see moly was still at 680 being it had over 5% gas in the oil based on CG not flash point... FYI the UOA report list the oil as Mobil 0w20, it was in fact Toyota 0w16 synthetic oil...

Toyota has great oil http://pqiadata.org/Toyota_0W20.html
I'm actually thinking of using it in my engine next.

 

[HEMIMANN]

From what they make it sound like ANs are a big part of their base oil blend. Im not sure where they put esters

Yup. But I'm not current enough to know if AN's displace esters as an additive carrier or not. Without googling the chemistry, it appears at first blush they have similar molecular structure and may act similarly in an engine oil.

Knowing HP Lubricants is top notch, I would have to suspect AN is superior to ester in some ways that we don't know about. A guy could ask David, but I'm too busy prepping for winter right now. gtg

 

[CanuckRam1313]

Amsoil says it is an issue with rings, huh maybe. Would a thicker oil make less dilution in this case? Maybe? Gas is so thin this just may be something unavoidable. Maybe injectors that atomize fuel more then oem? Maybe some injectoers need a good cleaning? sI-1?

GDI engines are good to a point, but they have their known issues.
The dealerships never tell anyone these things and make a fortune on service.

I've got an acquaintance who's a Service Manager at a Hyundai dealership, and the stories I'm told that happen behind the scenes in the shop because of the GDi engines... wow is all I can say.

I've had a few Hyundai's in my time; great cars and quick, but I had to use premium fuel, GDi fuel injector cleaner frequently, and shorten the OCI's because of their tendency to absorb the fuel in their oil.

** Taken from a published article regarding known/common GDi engine issues:

Fuel Dilution: Because the injectors are located in the combustion chamber, fuel spray can wash past the rings, down the far cylinder wall and into the oil sump, contaminating the oil and affecting its viscosity. This can cause issues such as increased wear of pistons, rings and cylinders, reduced protection against deposits, higher oil consumption and quicker oxidation.

Oil Vaporization: The higher temperatures and pressures in GDi engines can accelerate oil vaporization. Oil vapors passing through the cooler areas of the engine such as the intake valves, piston crown and catalytic system can lead to pooling and the formation of oil droplets. Because, unlike a port fuel injection engine, these droplets are not washed off by the fuel, they can coat and bake onto the valve causing performance issues.

Oil Evaporation: The higher temperatures in the crankcase can also cause some of the oil to evaporate, meaning that the fuel can become more concentrated. Much like fuel dilution, this impacts the oil’s viscosity, accelerating wear and tear of key components and reducing the oil’s service life.

Carbon Buildup: Again, because fuel no longer reaches and cleans the valves, this can result in a build-up of carbon on both the injectors and valves, restricting fuel delivery and air flow to the cylinders respectively. Over time, these deposits can cause performance issues such as reduced engine power and fuel economy.

Low-Speed Pre-Ignition: Known as LSPI for short, it typically occurs under low speed, high load conditions. LSPI is caused by fuel droplets that are released into the combustion chamber and ignited before the spark plug fires. This abnormal combustion event can result in higher engine pressures, leading to engine knock and potentially severe internal damage.

As these service issues can occur in as little as 3,000 miles, diagnosing and remedying them early is important. Failure to do so will not only affect the vehicle’s performance and fuel economy, but if left untreated for long enough, could also result in severe engine damage, requiring a timely and costly teardown to fix.

 

[Yardbird]

GDI engines are good to a point, but they have their known issues.
The dealerships never tell anyone these things and make a fortune on service.

I've got an acquaintance who's a Service Manager at a Hyundai dealership, and the stories I'm told that happen behind the scenes in the shop because of the GDi engines... wow is all I can say.
......................................
Fuel Dilution: Because the injectors are located in the combustion chamber, fuel spray can wash past the rings, down the far cylinder wall and into the oil sump, contaminating the oil and affecting its viscosity. This can cause issues such as increased wear of pistons, rings and cylinders, reduced protection against deposits, higher oil consumption and quicker oxidation.

Oil Vaporization: The higher temperatures and pressures in GDi engines can accelerate oil vaporization. Oil vapors passing through the cooler areas of the engine such as the intake valves, piston crown and catalytic system can lead to pooling and the formation of oil droplets. Because, unlike a port fuel injection engine, these droplets are not washed off by the fuel, they can coat and bake onto the valve causing performance issues.

Oil Evaporation: The higher temperatures in the crankcase can also cause some of the oil to evaporate, meaning that the fuel can become more concentrated. Much like fuel dilution, this impacts the oil’s viscosity, accelerating wear and tear of key components and reducing the oil’s service life.

Carbon Buildup: Again, because fuel no longer reaches and cleans the valves, this can result in a build-up of carbon on both the injectors and valves, restricting fuel delivery and air flow to the cylinders respectively. Over time, these deposits can cause performance issues such as reduced engine power and fuel economy.

Low-Speed Pre-Ignition: Known as LSPI for short, it typically occurs under low speed, high load conditions. LSPI is caused by fuel droplets that are released into the combustion chamber and ignited before the spark plug fires. This abnormal combustion event can result in higher engine pressures, leading to engine knock and potentially severe internal damage.

As these service issues can occur in as little as 3,000 miles, diagnosing and remedying them early is important. Failure to do so will not only affect the vehicle’s performance and fuel economy, but if left untreated for long enough, could also result in severe engine damage, requiring a timely and costly teardown to fix.

The above is why I went with a Ram with a V-6. I do not want direct injection, turbos, nor any other complicated system, such as port/direct injection combo like as Ford has.

The Ram V-6 seems to be the most simple and reliable engine in a full sized truck. Time will tell I suppose, but so far I am well pleased.

Hyundai has had problems since day one of direct injection. They took the 2.4 port injection engine and didn't beef it up enough for the added power and fuel dilution. For a company that was doing all they could to win customers when they came back in 2001-2002, they soon lost their incentive to improve products as new technolgy was introduced.

 

[ramffml]

The above is why I went with a Ram with a V-6. I do not want direct injection, turbos, nor any other complicated system, such as port/direct injection combo like as Ford has.

The Ram V-6 seems to be the most simple and reliable engine in a full sized truck. Time will tell I suppose, but so far I am well pleased.

Is it though? I think a case can be made that the hemi with MDS is still simpler (pushrod) vs DOHC. And as for reliability, that can go either way, some small amount of hemis get lifter issues but pentastar also get them, plus gasket issues, and they have an oil filter system with like 9 gaskets which eventually leak.

Not suggesting you need to feel bad about your engine, I'd happily run one too if I didn't need to tow (previous ride was a 3.6 jeep gc).

 

[HEMIMANN]

Any sacrifice for the holy grail of one millionth of a percent in fuel savings.

Reminds of Navy days - spend $5 million to save $50, because only the bean counter got rewarded.

 

[06 Dodge]

Toyota has great oil http://pqiadata.org/Toyota_0W20.html
I'm actually thinking of using it in my engine next.

I like what I saw in your link, when I get time to talk to Toyota I will ask if I can use their 0w20 under warranty as I would like a bit more protection being this engine has >5% gas in the oil.

 

[knightjp]

Is it though? I think a case can be made that the hemi with MDS is still simpler (pushrod) vs DOHC. And as for reliability, that can go either way, some small amount of hemis get lifter issues but pentastar also get them, plus gasket issues, and they have an oil filter system with like 9 gaskets which eventually leak.

Not suggesting you need to feel bad about your engine, I'd happily run one too if I didn't need to tow (previous ride was a 3.6 jeep gc).

I think a similar case can be made in the fact that whatever lifter issues you see in both the V6 and V8 Chrysler engines can be put on the move to thinner oils for better EPA ratings with little to no design changes to either.
Thinner oils and subpar gaskets all in the name of pleasing accountants. That's what I blame it on.
Evidence clearly shows in a number of forums and threads that those running 5W30/0w40 oils (from the very start) with short OCIs have never faced such issues (MDS or not).

 

[HEMIMANN]

The push for thinner oil does not come from the car companies - it comes from U.S. EPA demanding ever less fuel consumption.

This has the entire industry reaching for ridiculous, short-term miniscule improvements for high cost and short engine life. This Forum is useful in not only seeing this for what it is, but informed insiders as well as field tests to provide members with what works best in their engines to hold their engines together.

That's where Red Line racing oil came from. In the past, before all this EPA nonsense, no one I know used a racing oil in a daily driver vehicle. It just wasn't necessary.

That said, in the case of Hemi engines, the poor oiling of the lifters may or may not have had something to do with engine design for adding MDS. Remember, lifter and cam failures occurred BEFORE MDS was added to the engine.

 

[Yardbird]

Is it though? I think a case can be made that the hemi with MDS is still simpler (pushrod) vs DOHC. And as for reliability, that can go either way, some small amount of hemis get lifter issues but pentastar also get them, plus gasket issues, and they have an oil filter system with like 9 gaskets which eventually leak.

Not suggesting you need to feel bad about your engine, I'd happily run one too if I didn't need to tow (previous ride was a 3.6 jeep gc).

It's a crapshoot on most all of todays engines. DOHC engines do have a lot of parts, but it seems the early failures of phasers and chain guides have pretty much been remedied.

Rocker arms and cams are fairly easy to get to on OHC engines if the need be.

I am running PUP 5w30 with Lubegard. I also hold the throttle to the floor to cut off the injectors while I spin the engine over to get oil to the top after it's been sitting overnight or more. Makes for a quieter startup.

I do not like the V-6 oil filter setup as designed. It's convenient to change the filter, but made cheaply and prone to warp and leak. I also don't like the drain back of oil from the top of the engine after sitting. It's obvious when first started the top end is mostly dry, which is why I try to pre lube cold starts.

All engines have their dumb weak parts. I took a chance on the 3.6, and hope it works out for me. Time will tell. I put a little over 5k miles on it last year, and probably the same, or likely less, this year. That is prone to change though.

I most likely will officially retire this year or early next, so driving will/may be much less, or more.

My '87 F-150 had 76k on it when I bought it in late 1992, and has only 138k now, best I recall. That would only be off 1k either way.

I must say I'm liking the Ram so much I'm driving it more while the wife's Edge and old F-150 is sitting.

 

[Redfisher1974]

There was a pentastar 3.6 in the news recently with 650k miles. Failed due to plastic timing chain tensioner wore out. They tore it down and rest of motor was still in decent shape.

 

[ramffml]

There was a pentastar 3.6 in the news recently with 650k miles. Failed due to plastic timing chain tensioner wore out. They tore it down and rest of motor was still in decent shape.

My first rule of stats, always chop off the outliers and ignore them. Focus on what 75% to 90% of people are getting and you get a more accurate prediction of how reliable it will be for you.

Bitog has a story of a honda accord going almost a million miles. Not going to happen to 99% of accord owners though.

 

[ramffml]

Just got my latest report back from Blackstone. A shorter run of HPL Euro No Vii 5w-30, with some pretty decent amounts of towing. Mileage is in KM's, not miles.

The lab flagged both aluminum and silicone as being kind of high, I'm not terribly worried (yet) about those 2 as David has mentioned on bitog that both are present in ****** oil, one formula has silicon at 7 ppm (used as a defoamer) and aluminum at 10 (part of the high dose of moly). source on bitog

I might try to find a VOA of this to see what the silicone and alum is.

Iron has plummeted which given the high towing makes me happy. It's now the lowest I've ever had.

The copper though, that's the one that worries me, not the highest I've seen, but seems much higher than the last 4. The actual reported value of 54 is identical to last time, but my driven miles is less so that makes it higher (right? I'm assuming my attempts at normalizing wear metals out to 10k is "OK"?)

TBN is nuts, could probably have driven 20,000 kms and still had something left there.

Again note that I have 2 numbers each for alum/chrom/iron/copper, the first row is the actual reported row and the second row is the one that is normalized to 10k kms so that we can compare exact numbers at exactly the same mileage.

Comments from the lab ("miles" is incorrect, it's in kms)

We calculated about 7,700 miles on this oil based on accrued engine mileage. A little more aluminum showed up this
time than usual, with the emphasis on *a little*. For the engine type, this still isn't much aluminum at all, it's just a bit
atypical of your Dodge 5.7L. Silicon slightly inched up, so it wouldn't hurt to check the air filter just in case some dirt is
getting by, but that's a mild suggestion. Silicon may just be a sealer or lube. No significant fuel or coolant showed up in
testing, and the TBN was still plenty strong at 8.2. Another ~10,000-mile run should be fine.

 

[ramffml]

I should also mention that this is the first run that includes my new pacbrake remote oil filter kit. Perhaps some material in there is skewing the results as well? Alum + silicon? It's made from aluminum as far as I can tell. No copper anywhere unless it's on the fittings themselves (doubtful).

 

[Curmudgeon]

I just mailed-in my sample this past Monday, first ever UOA on any vehicle.
My 2014 5.7L 1500 4x4 just hit 105,000 miles. The oil was changed 1 month ago and 584 miles ago. I wanted to see what it looks like now so I can compare it to a sample 1 year from now. I will only put about 6k more miles on this oil before I change it again.
The dealer tells me it is Pennzoil synthetic 5w-20 but that's all the detail I can get from them.
When I get results back I will post them here.

On an unrelated note my truck is getting it's first application of
Fluid Film today. I swear it looks like it's only a year old underneath, so I'm really glad I'm not to late to get started with this protection.

 

[Burla]

How on erf do you have 8.2 tbn left? I dunno man, this is one of those just change oils thing and rinse repeat see where you end up. Not enough wear to be a problem, but it suggests something is up. No moly which heavy moly could be the answer for copper. Viscosity not too thick which could account for alum. Dunno, loss at the moment.

No theory on copper, alum could have been present in oil as we have come to understand lately.

 

[HEMIMANN]

@ramffml - thanks for running this oil and reporting.

I really don't understand why copper would be elevated. The only place I can think of where it's used is crank journal and rod bearings. If iron wear (cylinders) is low, how could full fluid film journal bearings be wearing? Makes no sense to me.

Also, the lab analysis shows zero moly additive in the no vii oil. Why would they not include moly additive?

Very confusing.

 

[ramffml]

How on erf do you have 8.2 tbn left? I dunno man, this is one of those just change oils thing and rinse repeat see where you end up. Not enough wear to be a problem, but it suggests something is up. No moly which heavy moly could be the answer for copper. Viscosity not too thick which could account for alum. Dunno, loss at the moment.

No theory on copper, alum could have been present in oil as we have come to understand lately.

I don't think you read bitog much or at all anymore? But wwilson over there is running HPL in 6.6 duramax diesel and also a 3.6 pentastar and he has crazy long OCI's, something like 25,000+ miles with just filter changes, all backed up by UOA samples.

The pics he shows of the internals are incredibly squeaky clean, like if you wiped it off with a rag its brand new.

That's what HPL is aiming for with their oils, clean engines, low wear, and high intervals.

I just don't have the guts to try that on a hemi. Been here too long, read the reports etc. But yeah many people without knowledge of the tick would say I'm just throwing perfectly good oil out at 7700 kms.