Def misery with ethical dilemma

[Ydbody]

2019 Ram 2500 Big Horn 6.7 bone stock
Two years in a row at about the same time of the year I had the def system warning with the dreaded countdown.
2024 story:
Driving home from work on a cold winters day in North Dakota saw a message pop up on the center display def system see dealer. Then the countdown. Then it went away. Wife needed truck so off I sent her with it. While she was 40 ish miles away it came on again saying about 110 miles left. Fun phone call with ecstatic wife. She cut her shopping short and came home. Both dealers within reasonable driving distance booked. Got the something erratic code and decided to clear it. Then cleaned def injector, cleaned hose to it and the tank. All with just water, very gently. Stuck camera in def tank to see if frozen. Clear. Took to a trusted family shop who admitted he didn't have access to latest scan systems for a 2019 Ram. Came up with nothing on his scan tool except for the def temperature sensor said it had been 1.9 billion degrees below zero. We counted the numbers. I took a picture to show the dealership. Tried another dealership and they said I could drop it off early so off I went there. Still counting down. Hit 3 miles left and disappeared. Nothing happened. Got to dealership and nothing in computer. Nice young man service writer said bring it in , let's scan it and see if there is anything to be seen. He said I had a low tire warning two weeks prior and nothing else. He didn't charge me anything and nothing happened until....
2025 story
Another cold snap In February and needed the truck so took it to work. 56 mile one way trip. Def warning came back. Countdown started and didn't stop. Low def code, maybe frozen as truck sits outside, and the erratic code again. 3 days in heated shop, everything thawed. Didn't do anything but add def to the truck inside heated shop to make sure gauge registered def level. Sometimes it doesn't register it right away when it may be frozen. It responded after wiggling truck some. Cleared the 2 codes again. Made an appointment at dealer. No codes coming back after 3 drive cycles. No pending codes at all. Drove to dealership and countdown went to zero. Stopped truck 2 blocks away to see if limp mode would engage. It did. 5 mph is unbelievably slow. And dangerous. Wife following me in work beater, very impressed again. Dropped unusable truck off in limp mode.

This is where it gets silly. I failed to check what service writer put on computer. No mention of def, even though I corrected the initial call taker to make sure it said def system see dealer. They didn't write it down. Said service engine light was on. That was never on once.

Charged me 230 bucks to reflash pcm and said no part was bad so no warranty. Escalated to ram cares. No help there either. Not even technical assistance. The tech said on the work order since I cleared the codes it set the countdown. Do not know how that is possible.

Sorry for the long sob story. This makes no sense to me. And looks like when I am going cross country to move my travelling nurse wife's camper I will be screwed.

Ethical dilemma is do I delete and forget about it? Seems like def system Is not suitable for cold weather. Total epa mandated garbage. Wife still not happy.
Any help or words of wisdom much appreciated. Or just tell me i talk too much, that would be fair also.

 

[mikeru]

I don't have any experience personally, but for me it would come down to one basic question...do you plan to keep this truck forever? You won't be able to trade in a deleted truck and selling one can be very difficult. A friend of mine deleted his F250 a couple years ago, and now he's dealing with how to sell the truck because he no longer needs the truck.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Funny how tree huggers don't realize that the manufacturing of def and the shipping of def makes it worse than not having it. And lets not forget all the def plastic containers.

Just delete your truck dude. It was never about making the environment cleaner.

 

[star_deceiver]

Mine did similar garbage in the extreme cold. My codes were either clogged def injector or clogged scr.

The def injector would solve itself every restart. The differential pressure sensor above the scr would freeze with highway driving and solve itself when I stopped for a minute and the exhaust heat warmed it up. There was rarely a check engine light and it would reset every restart.

I traded my regular cab off for a crew cab gasser.

My opinion. Delete the truck but keep the parts. When it comes time to sell or trade, undelete and reflash the computer to stock.

 

[nlambert182]

I know nothing about North Dakota, but down in the Southeast area many dealers don't care whether or not a truck is deleted. They're on the lot all the time.

To answer whether or not you should depends on how well you stomach risk. That's a personal question. I will lay out the pros and cons and then you need to decide for yourself.


Pros:
It can be much more economical both in terms of cost and downtime than repairing the emissions system depending upon what failed.
It removes the risk of an emissions failure at an inopportune time.
It significantly improves fuel economy with a proper tune.

Cons:
It is illegal in all 50 states. If your state are sticklers on deletes, you could be faced with some hefty fines and maybe more.
It can cause catastrophic failures of the engine and/or transmission if you get an itchy finger and try to increase power. Stock HP level tune is all that a 68RFE transmission can take and remain reliable.

 

[armyvet25]

This is in first gen why?

 

[Ydbody]

I thought I put it in hd section.
Thank you everyone for input and advice.
Is there a way to defeat the countdown with anything but a factory scan tool? I told the service manager this sounds like a john deere scenario.
No, please don't fix your own stuff. You may do something that the epa wouldn't like. Lol
Please let my wife know that 5mph limp speed is great, saving the environment.
Cheaper to delete than fix. And the mileage increase on stockish tune may add up to pay for the delete parts. Plus no more countdowns.

 

[mrack]

It’s not hard to sell a deleted truck, that’s just what the epa wants you to think

 

[markabby]

any chance you can put a scan tool in it while driving? maybe it'll show something that's not coming up when parked? I'm just guessing...never owned a diesel

 

[Ydbody]

Live data on my cheapy scan tool shows no anomalies. All numbers look great. This truck has never missed a beat. Love the power, cold starting, towing is confidence inspiring because of exhaust brake and towing ability.
Hoping to see Zelden gut the epa and maybe give us diesel owners a break.
Truck is at 108k. Wanted this to be keeper truck. I do not know if I can co exist with this generation emissions system.
I agree def has added more pollution to environment than eliminated. Terrible idea with questionable execution to meet a standard that maybe cannot be met. I know there has been really smart people trying to overcome this crap system. I just don't know if this works for me and my family. Reading the other posts it looks like I have it easy. I agree. I do not have any money in repairs at this time. At least any I consider legitimate.

 

[Grams]

I know nothing about North Dakota, but down in the Southeast area many dealers don't care whether or not a truck is deleted. They're on the lot all the time.

To answer whether or not you should depends on how well you stomach risk. That's a personal question. I will lay out the pros and cons and then you need to decide for yourself.


Pros:
It can be much more economical both in terms of cost and downtime than repairing the emissions system depending upon what failed.
It removes the risk of an emissions failure at an inopportune time.
It significantly improves fuel economy with a proper tune.

Cons:
It is illegal in all 50 states. If your state are sticklers on deletes, you could be faced with some hefty fines and maybe more.
It can cause catastrophic failures of the engine and/or transmission if you get an itchy finger and try to increase power. Stock HP level tune is all that a 68RFE transmission can take and remain reliable.

Gotta wonder…. With all the clever people who make Tuners… Why hasn’t someone created a tune that gets rid of the “limp” mode?

 

[Longhorn1500]

I had a similar situation...

Got the DEF issue, see dealer message, then the countdown to limp mode. Dealer booked for 1 1/2 months. Made appointment, took truck in in December. Countdown was at 15 miles when I got there. Gave them the key, they come back to me in 20 minutes saying no message and no codes, they took it for a long test drive with no issues...

What am I supposed to do? We use the truck to tow our 9000 pound trailer. If we get this, random, message while we are 1000 miles from home, ???

No issues now, truck weighs less too!!

 

[GTyankee]

Just be glad that you do not live up in the North California Mountain Country.

We will have strict emissions rules until California Sinks under salt water

In 2027, most of the States will be rid of those stupid Rules

 

[zrock]

When you're going to the dealer why would you delete the codes that makes no sense.

 

[markabby]

Live data on my cheapy scan tool shows no anomalies. All numbers look great. This truck has never missed a beat. Love the power, cold starting, towing is confidence inspiring because of exhaust brake and towing ability.
Hoping to see Zelden gut the epa and maybe give us diesel owners a break.
Truck is at 108k. Wanted this to be keeper truck. I do not know if I can co exist with this generation emissions system.
I agree def has added more pollution to environment than eliminated. Terrible idea with questionable execution to meet a standard that maybe cannot be met. I know there has been really smart people trying to overcome this crap system. I just don't know if this works for me and my family. Reading the other posts it looks like I have it easy. I agree. I do not have any money in repairs at this time. At least any I consider legitimate.

any possibility the problem could be with the catalytic converter?

 

[DILLIGAF]

No wonder the price of old 12 valves and DT360s are thru the roof.

Nothing beats a real diesel engine without electronics.

 

[Ydbody]

The reason i deleted the codes was that what i did last time and nothing returned. So if a pcm sees a fault code, then it is no longer active or even pending, just like a gas engine, the check engine light should not be lit after about 3 drive cycles. I never had a check engine light. Just the see dealer def problem message on the center of the instrument panel. The only light I had was low def. After adding the 2.5 gallons, the gauge didn't move. Low def light still on. So into the heated shop it went. 3 days and completely thawed and wiggled the truck and the gauge responded. And low def light was out. The countdown still continued. As it did last time. No codes returned and were not even pending.

My work order says that by deleting the codes that i "set" the countdown. This did not happen last time, and at 3 miles left, the countdown disappeared. I asked for technical assistance from Ram Cares with this statement and they kept referring me to the dealership. Since I have no faith or trust in that dealership I would not trust their reply. My closest dealership is reliable, but always booked solid for 3 weeks.

The technical question is this: is it possible for the pcm to not see a fault with any component or data parameter and still go through the countdown and engage limp mode? I have not had that answer yet. If I had known that, I would have kept the codes in the system but monitored for any changes. I still do not know if that is a real scenario.

I did work as a service advisor in Colorado for 2 years for a reputable and honest family owned shop. We were not allowed to reset check engine lights, but could notate the work order with what was active and what was pending. I would not hook a scan tool up to someones vehicle who did not have an appointment. I know the techs need that information. I never thought that would be the scenario with modern diesel emissions that the mileage countdown would "lock in"upon resetting the codes. I worked in that shop for the years 2009 to 2011, right when this def madness was getting rolling. So my ignorance may have cost me money. But I would like the answer to my technical question.

Still very much appreciate the advice and help. This conversation is helping formulate what is next for this truck.

 

[Burla]

Sell it and get a hemi 6.4 problem is solved. It is sick what they put on the cummins, EGR cooler, CATS, DEF, DPF and a turbo that forces air through it all. No Turbo, EGR cooler, DEF or DPF sign me up. We may be running out of time, future gas 2500's are gonna suck even worse until something gives.

 

[Burla]

No wonder the price of old 12 valves and DT360s are thru the roof.

Nothing beats a real diesel engine without electronics.

My best friends 12v = 25 mpg's verified. In fact, he went on a trip that was more uphill, and he got 23 mpg on the hilly run and 25 mpg returning with the less up hills. It is his daily, plus he tows a mini x for his job. You don't wanna know what he paid, lucky barn find bastage! It is a sad state of affairs a 30 plus year old truck has a better outlook then brand new $100k diesels. It gets worse, the OP has the cp4 pump most likely, so the chances of this truck being on the road as long as any 12v, well you know where my bet is on that.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Holy ***** that thing is clean , I tried to find a 12v but a 5ton IHC was cheaper ...lol.

I just took my new to me 90s IHC out for the first time today. No CP4 Disco party here.

They sounds awesome

DT360

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