Kicker key and alpine system...

[Mleads310]

After reading and with the help of 89grands thread and a few others I've decided to bite the bullet. I'm going to install the kicker key 200.4 and kenwood excelon KFC-XP6903C (bi-amped) in my alpine 9 speaker system. Here's my question. Do I need to install this before or after the factory alpine amp?
I'm concerned if I install key with a t harness before the amp I will loose volume control, BT or any canbus functions that the factory alpine amp provides to the speakers. So would installing the key 200.4 after the factory alpine amp (hi level input?) Give me the best results, while not having to worry about loosing any functions?

Also for more background I currently have infinity kappa 6x9s in the rear door running off the stock amp, sounds pretty good for fill. Lc2i rear sub output to a sound ordinance m350 amp feeding a kicker P2D4 10". The sound for the sub is pretty good as well, but may be tempted to switch out the sound ordinance with a kicker key 500.1 as I feel I'm missing some of the range in that area. I hear the bass, I feel the bass, but it mostly all sounds the same if you know what I mean?

89grand, I was tempted to keep my cdt 6x9s but after the misinformation given by cdt on the ohm etc, I decided not to use their equipment. Not to say it's not good, just that the experience didn't sit well with me and decided to go with a component system that was tried and true already.

 

[89grand]

I'm pretty sure you're going to want the signals after the amplifier. I'm not sure where to get a harness to connect to it, but I'm sure you can get one. From there, you'll want to use an Audio Control LC7i. It would replace your current LC2i. What the LC7i can do that the 2i can't is two fold. It provides 6 channels of output instead of 4 and 6 channels of input instead of just 2, in addition, since the Alpine amp has built in crossovers, the LC7i can sum up to 6 channels of speaker level input to create the full range RCA outputs you need to feed your amps.

Lets say the Alpine unit has 2 channels for tweeters, 2 for midrange, and 2 or 1 for subwoofer. If you connect all 6 speaker wire channels into the inputs, it can sum them together to create full range outputs to the RCA's.

Ways you could use this in your setup, is channels 1-2 could go to a Kicker Key to bi-amp the front doors and dash, outputs 3-4 would go to your rear doors with a 2 channel amp, and outputs 5-6 would go to your subwoofer.

Because the LC7i has Accubass, you really don't need to use a Kicker Key 500.1 as it does pretty much the same thing, just not automatically. You could also use the Key 500.1 and just not use the adjustable Accubass of the LC7i.

I do understand your feelings about CDT in regards to the 2 ohm thing. They really are great speakers, very solid bass from the 6x9's, and the Unity 8's are awesome, but again, I see why you feel the way you do. Even though I wasn't using their 2 ohm versions, I think it's BS what they are doing.

 

[Watson Rogers]

nvm i see you have 2013.

 

[89grand]

https://www.ebay.com/i/164012075808...MaF7Q2RJVbir3H8sDloQIJxdpe9RgUPgaAplfEALw_wcB

Is what you want if you have the 2018.

The main thing I don't like about it, is the PAC LOC is nowhere near as versatile and adjustable as the LC7i.

 

[Watson Rogers]

Yeah i was thinking of the much improved r2 version but its not available for your year.

 

[Mleads310]

89grand. Great advice and question to follow up:

If I were to want to leave the rear doors not amped and leave the sub as is (lc2i, amp, signal coming from factory sub wires in rear), would the lc7i become unnecessary? If I only plan on bi-amping the front doors and dash wouldn't the key 200.4 flatten the current signal ( front doors and dash taken after the factory alpine amp) and be able to process it as needed for the bi amp without any loss of quality? I thought the key 200.4 can take any signal (high or low etc) flatten it and process it accordingly to what speakers are bi amped? Forgive me as I'm still learning how this works.

If I were amping the rear doors and/or wanted to avoid adding the key 500.1 for the rear sub, I definitely see the benefit of using the lc7i immediately after the stock alpine amp.

 

[rotwiler]

I went with a amp pro ch41, now there's a newer updated one. Is installed at radio harness, keeps volume control like normal and has front rear and subwoofer rca outs. I didn't amp the interior speakers though, just using for the sub amp. Bass sounds so much better than with the loc or lc2i.

 

[Mleads310]

Thanks rotwiler. I'm hoping I could avoid running more RCAs and new speaker wire with just the ability to add the key 200.4 to bi-amp my front door and dash speakers. I'm not very knowledgeable on tuning and the key 200.4 would be a savior for that.

I "may" later on add a key 500.1 for my sub if the lack of range from the sub continues to bother me.

 

[89grand]

89grand. Great advice and question to follow up:

If I were to want to leave the rear doors not amped and leave the sub as is (lc2i, amp, signal coming from factory sub wires in rear), would the lc7i become unnecessary? If I only plan on bi-amping the front doors and dash wouldn't the key 200.4 flatten the current signal ( front doors and dash taken after the factory alpine amp) and be able to process it as needed for the bi amp without any loss of quality? I thought the key 200.4 can take any signal (high or low etc) flatten it and process it accordingly to what speakers are bi amped? Forgive me as I'm still learning how this works.

If I were amping the rear doors and/or wanted to avoid adding the key 500.1 for the rear sub, I definitely see the benefit of using the lc7i immediately after the stock alpine amp.

The problem with the Alpine system is there are no full range speaker wires to use as the input, at least not that I know of. If you grabbed either the tweeter or midrange speaker leads, the Key couldn't fill in the missing frequencies, I don't think anything can do that. It can only eq and flatten what it receives. The LC7i is taking all of the signals, high mid and low and combining them into full range outputs, and you need something to be able to do that.

You may be able to leave the rear door speakers running off the radio, I'm not entirely sure about that. It all depends on how any harness for this can be wired.

My setup was a lot easier because I have the base 6 speaker. In my case an LC2i Pro was enough, as it gave me front outs to the Key and sub out, then with the t-harness, I was able to connect the rear speakers straight through so the radio still powers them.

This is a case where the premium system is a premium pain in the ass. The base 6 speaker is a lot easier to deal with. I can understand not wanting to revamp the whole setup, but to get it working to its fullest, I think you'll have to.

Keep in mind I'm not an expert on the Alpine system, a lot of what I'm saying are assumptions, so if anyone that knows it better corrects me, than I'm wrong. Technically, there are no tweeters, they are 2.75" full range speakers being used as mids and tweeters, but it's still won't be a full range signal, nor will the doors.

You could probably use just the door and dash speaker outputs and leave the sub alone, to get a full enough signal for the Key 200.4, but you'd still need something like the LC7i to sum them together.

 

[Cableman]

If you do grab a high-level signal you still need to run new wires to the dash and doors or find them on the factory amp. Not sure if they make a bypass harness for the fronts or not or maybe they would have to be clipped and spliced and run to new amp.

I think if i ever go this route im gonna do the pac ch41 which is supposed to grab a full signal before its amped and retain the canbus control for volume and what not.

 

[Mleads310]

Ok I did some research and found this
https://netaudio.com/product/dodge-ram-alpine-system-amp-interface-amppro-4-ap4-ch41/

It's the pac ch41 with a t harness specifically for the ram with alpine system. It plugs in between the HU and the alpine amp. It states it can retain all other functions bt, volume control , canbus etc. I need to call them and just confirm a few things:

1-is there any benefit to using the pac ch41 vs the lc7i with this t harness?

2- if I use the t harness and pac ch41, am I now forced to use the pac ch41 to supply signal to all my speakers? I have rear door speakers that I have no intention of amping and need to know if I can have them run off the stock alpine amp?
-Maybe they can make it possible with a custom t harness?

This alpine system is becoming an issue to figure out to say the least.

 

[rotwiler]

What's in that package is what came with my amp pro. I found it open box for under $154 on amazon(looked up what I paid). I seen somewhere a harness that you connect at the amp, so all you have to do is run speaker wires from the amp you install to the harness at the alpine amp, but I haven't researched it much since I am happy with sound after changing the interior speakers to jbls. There is a ax-dsp that connects same way as the ch41, I have one, tried it and worked fantastic, except software wouldn't let me keep it on digital amp , so I had no volume control. Tech support never helped, just told me, get a iphone, android has issues. But I seen they came out with a newer ax dsp. I was able to get the ax dsp to recognize the Rams alpine amp, worked great, I went in to make a EQ adjustment on my phone and saved my settings, then the ax dsp reverted to non digital amp, updated firmware, completely reset it, was like the ax dsp just failed to recognize the amp after that. I finally gave up after 10 emails to customer service. After adding the gx302 speakers up front and rear door jbl 2ohm speakers, sound quality is very good. I'm 54 and always been into audio and do most installs myself, everyone who hears it, can't believe it's running off the stock amp( if I turn off the subwoofer amp). But everyone has different things they like in sound quality. I would like it(interior speakers) a little louder, but is plenty loud for most people, probably good I don't, since would like my hearing to remain. For your question, if you have the amp pro ch41 you don't need another loc, the audiocontrol has a adjustment to fix rolloff, but being the amp pro takes signal before the stock amp, there is no rolloff. Look at the amp pro as rca outputs on a aftermarket radio. Use them same way, has a clean, flat signal, then you can add amps. You can run just the rear speakers off the factory amp no problem.

 

[regal81455]

Yeah and to add to that just mount the key under the radio in the center stack. Then your RCA from the PAC is super short. From there you can depin the speakers you don't want running through the factory alpine amp at the amp itself. From here one of three things can happen.

A - you can cut off the pins and butt splice the speaker leads from it over to the appropriate terminal on the amp OR

B - you can spend a little extra money and effort - buy the correct m/f connectors from arrow or similar supply house and make a plug and play harness of your own by using the factory pinned wires on one side of the plug and then make the opposite harness up going to your amp OR

C - Tape the pins up so they don't make contact with each other and then wrap the bundle up somewhere and run new wires from the amp to the speakers. This route can be a PITA if you're trying to amp the doors but it can be done. There are videos of people running a few extra wires through the factory grommet. IIRC you have to notch out some plastic but I have watched in awhile so I could be off or a new way exists I'm not aware.

Somewhere along the lines you're going to have to alter something from the OEM. The question is which is least invasive to you as the owner.

 

[regal81455]

Below is the pin outs and connector info at the alpine amp.

On the C1 connector all the X50's range circuits are the original signal coming from your HU. You'll leave these alone. Any of the other speaker related terminals on the either connector would be the one's you'd want to tie back to the kicker to provide output to the selected speakers.

 

[regal81455]

As a side note, I went back and forth with considering the kicker key and factory integration but eventually came to decide it wouldn't be good enough for me. I ended up replacing the HU, adding an AC D6.1200 for the dash corners and all four doors, a X501 amp and stealthbox for subs. Where I'm really headed with this though is I did all my speaker wiring except the sub right at the factory amp using a speed wire cable from the AC to the alpine amp and even retained the factory amp for use with the center dash and ceiling speakers.

The alpine setup definitely has it's challenges but they can be overcome it just takes a little more thought. Additionally, I'd suggest if you're the type that can be easily dissatisfied I consider before going through all the trouble what your expectations are.

 

[regal81455]

Sorry for all the posts but one last thing to consider. During my research I did come along an amp from Kenwood that integrates into the system seamlessly and includes DSP. It just wasn't the power I was looking for. You can look it up on crutchfield and I'm pretty five star audio did an install with it on a ram on youtube. It looked pretty slick and they seemed impressed. It also appears there are RCA line outs so you can preamp a monoblock for subs after the DSP. This is the stuff you'd need for that.

Kenwood Excelon P-XR600-6DSP

iDatalink HRN-AR-CH2 Harness

 

[regal81455]

Last post I swear LOL - here's the video I referenced above.

 

[Mleads310]

Lol no worries at all, the more information the better, sorta. Lol. I now realize how uneducated I am at this stuff, but slowly learning. I have been watching as many 5stars youtube videos possible (there's a lot) as he does a great job explaining everything. That kenwood/ar combo is insane but definitely out of my league and I would think it's over kill for me. I even looked at the comments on that video, one in particular asking if he prefers using the kenwood/at or the amp pro, and 5star responded with using the amp pro is easier and gives more flexibility.

So I'm still now gather/researching information on which would best fit my needs

T-harness/amp pro/ key amp
Or
T-harness/lc7i/ key amp

Either way I end up, I'm not planning on running new speaker wires. I plan to tap back into the stock speaker wires after the factory alpine amp. Thank you for those diagrams!!!

Thank you for everyone's input and help with this. Hopefully within the next week I'll come to an educated decision and order everything needed for the install.

 

[regal81455]

For sure. Just trying to help out any way I can!

 

[Mleads310]

It's definitely been helpful! Looking back a few weeks ago, I can't believe how much is involved in audio system upgrades, let alone the alpine system. Without the members here helping and adding insite, I would still be totally lost.....now I'm only partially lost.

I'd really appreciate all the help from the members on here and I'm sure I'll have more questions within the next few days