Need some advice/answers PLEASE

[Jbaker33]

So I have the chance to buy an 04 5.7 hemi motor this weekend for 150 bucks. The whole point is I want to learn to rebuild one, upgrade it with 6.1 parts, and then installing it into my truck. Nothing is wrong with my trucks current motor but I have been really into learning any and all things auto. It's going to be a year at least before it's completed. I wanted to be able to take my time vs mine going out and having to spend thousands that I don't have to buy a used or rebuilt one.

So, all of that being said, I have an 06 ram 1500 quad cab with a 5.7 hemi and a 545RFE. I read on here that 02 to 08 are pretty much interchangeable but I just wanted to clarify. I haven't looked at it in person and have only seen 2 pictures as it's 2 hours away from me. He's selling it cheap because it was given to him by his nephew. He wanted to rebuild it but says it won't work for his setup. I told him that I'm going to inspect it (take valve covers off to make sure the springs didn't break, valves drop etc. Possibly take heads off as well) I know a little bit but could use some advice.

When I was looking at the pics just now I seen that it has spark plug wires instead of COP that my 06 has. First question is, are there any major hang ups I will encounter with using an 04 in a 2006 or Will it be pretty much a plug and play (over simplification of course)? I know that it doesn't have the MDS system but As far as the plug wires go, would I be okay with just hooking my harness to it and installing my coil over plugs?

Next question, what are things I should look for to know it's not rebuildable, other than what I've already mentioned? Is there a quick way to check if the block or heads are toast? I'm going to bring a socket and breaker bar to make sure it isn't locked up. He said it ran when it was pulled, just needed a rear main seal (leak) and it had a bottom end knock. As far as asking what 6.1 parts would be a good idea to install, I'll save that for another day as I'm sure I have to be close to character limit lol. Thanks for reading this and thank you for any help,/advice or knowledge you can pass onto me.

 

[HemiLonestar]

The whole point is I want to learn to rebuild one, upgrade it with 6.1 parts, and then installing it into my truck.

So, all of that being said, I have an 06 ram 1500 quad cab with a 5.7 hemi and a 545RFE. I read on here that 02 to 08 are pretty much interchangeable but I just wanted to clarify.

When I was looking at the pics just now I seen that it has spark plug wires instead of COP that my 06 has. First question is, are there any major hang ups I will encounter with using an 04 in a 2006 or Will it be pretty much a plug and play (over simplification of course)? I know that it doesn't have the MDS system but As far as the plug wires go, would I be okay with just hooking my harness to it and installing my coil over plugs?

Next question, what are things I should look for to know it's not rebuildable, other than what I've already mentioned? Is there a quick way to check if the block or heads are toast? I'm going to bring a socket and breaker bar to make sure it isn't locked up. He said it ran when it was pulled, just needed a rear main seal (leak) and it had a bottom end knock.

So far as 6.1 parts, you're basically limited to timing chain, oil pump, crank, rods and heads (bore size is different so you can't use the pistons). I wouldn't use the heads in this scenario because you're gonna run into port mismatch, etc. Not a plug and play. The chain, oil pump, crank and rods have all been used as good upgrades for the 5.7. 6.1 crank and rods with your choice of 5.7 pistons are the cheap way to end up with a forged 5.7 bottom end.

03-05 5.7's (even the LX version in 05) have those goofy ass coils with wasted spark wire setup. They all went to the full coil pack setup in 06. Use your valve covers and coils and it will hook right up to your harness, easy peasy.

If it spins and doesn't have any obvious unplanned ventilation holes in the block then it should be fine for a rebuild. Keep in mind if you plan to drop that engine in your 06 you will need to disable the MDS in the tune.

 

[RonJon '06]

For 150 bucks you can't go wrong. Before starting the rebuild you could have the block tested for cracks to be on the safe side.



@ HemiLonestar: unplanned ventilation holes, I like that one lol.

 

[Jbaker33]

So far as 6.1 parts, you're basically limited to timing chain, oil pump, crank, rods and heads (bore size is different so you can't use the pistons). I wouldn't use the heads in this scenario because you're gonna run into port mismatch, etc. Not a plug and play. The chain, oil pump, crank and rods have all been used as good upgrades for the 5.7. 6.1 crank and rods with your choice of 5.7 pistons are the cheap way to end up with a forged 5.7 bottom end.

03-05 5.7's (even the LX version in 05) have those goofy ass coils with wasted spark wire setup. They all went to the full coil pack setup in 06. Use your valve covers and coils and it will hook right up to your harness, easy peasy.

If it spins and doesn't have any obvious unplanned ventilation holes in the block then it should be fine for a rebuild. Keep in mind if you plan to drop that engine in your 06 you will need to disable the MDS in the tune.

What's the reason that I would run into port mismatch with the 6.1 heads? I'm just trying to learn everything I can lol. I guess I could look it up but what does forged pistons, forged bottom end etc mean? I know you mean by bottom end, Ive just never heard what the forged part means or what it does for you. Would I be able to order the 6.1 valves, pushrods, springs, cam etc and install them on the 5.7 head?(Sorry if that's a dumb question). I haven't taken the heads off of mine before so I've never gotten to measure the valves. Once I get it apart I think I'll have a better idea of things. Not going to lie, I'm pretty pumped to get the motor and start taking it apart. I'm going to take a bunch of pictures when I take it apart so I will know where and how everything goes. I'm also going to bag up the bolts and hardware and label it. I've never been that type of person but with something as intricate and delicate as these things are, I'm not taking any chances.

One more thing that I am wanting to do but have yet to research is, painting the motor. I know you have to use a special paint That withstands the temps. So my question is, how do you prep some thing like that, other than blocking off all of entrance/exit parts of it. Does it have to be sandblasted or can it be wirewheeled with a brass wheel? I appreciate the help. Like I said, this probably won't be done until next year this time because we dont have the money to sink into it for now but I couldn't pass it up for 150..
Hopefully I won't need it until then but I don't know. My truck is acting a little funky. Can't tell if it's that or my transmission-545rfe 5 speed. Im sure I'll find out in due time lol.

For 150 bucks you can't go wrong. Before starting the rebuild you could have the block tested for cracks to be on the safe side.



@ HemiLonestar: unplanned ventilation holes, I like that one lol.

Would I bring that to a machine shop or is there a way I can do it myself in my garage?

 

[RonJon '06]

You'll have to take it to a shop to have it tested. If you want to do a quality rebuild then once you tear the engine down I'd take it to a machine shop and have it cleaned, magnafluxed and the cylinder walls deglazed or rebored depending on what kind of shape they're in. Once you know the bore size then start ordering parts.

Good call on taking pictures and labeling everything. If it's going to be a long time before assembly then maybe even take some notes about which steps go in what order.

 

[chrisp2493]

I used a angle grinder with a good wire brush attatchement to strip my block to bare metal. It had a good bit of rust build up. I also used a degreaser/gunk remover and carb cleaner to remove all the oil. After it was prepped and cleaned well I used high temp block paint from autozone, sprayed a few coats on it. If you take the block to a machine shop for any work, don’t paint it first. They normally hot tank it to give it a thorough clean. Depending on the mileage, it’s a good idea to have the cylinders checked for out-of-round, replace the cam bearings, and possibly have it magnafluxed (checking for cracks). In case there is cylinder damage, it’s normally repairable. I had a cylinder resleeved on my block. Find a local machine shop and get prices and talk to the guys to get an idea. I had about $700 wrapped up in machine costs, including a .020 overbore.



You don’t want to use the 6.1 valve pushrods with a 5.7 stock cam. The 5.7 and 6.1 cams have a different base circle, basically meaning the 6.1 pushrods are about .125 longer then 5.7 rods. If you upgrade to an aftermarket cam, almost all of them are on the smaller 6.1 base circle. 16 exhaust springs from the 6.1 engine is a great spring upgrade for mild cams. I’m running them on a .556/.560 lift stroker cam right now, though I might upgrade them in the future.

A forged bottom end means a forged crank, piston heads and connecting rods. The stock stuff is a cast crank and powered cast connecting rods. Forged steel cranks and forged aluminum pistons are a stronger, better option, but only necessary for running higher horsepower or boost. The weakest link in the Hemi’s is the top ring land on the pistons and the bad valve springs.

If you are doing a complete rebuild and are planning on taking a while to do it, I would consider doing a cam swap while you’re at it, that way you at least gain some power for your trouble. But you will need some kind of tuning to go along with that. Lots of options available for that.

 

[chrisp2493]

Also

6.1 valves are a different size and material then the 5.7 ones. And the ports are way bigger on the 6.1 heads

5.7 intake ports


6.1 Head


If you put the 5.7 intake (smaller ports) on the 6.1 heads (larger ports) there is a mismatch, and you won’t be getting any gains from it, and possibly even leaks, not sure on that. You can bolt them to it, but you need to use a 6.1 intake or similar, which normally runs into clearance issues on the truck engine. There are two timing covers, on for the cars and one for the trucks. The accessories mount it totally different locations. It’s doable but a lot of work to make it fit. Do some searching and googling, there are countless threads on this subject.

 

[Jbaker33]

Also

6.1 valves are a different size and material then the 5.7 ones. And the ports are way bigger on the 6.1 heads

5.7 intake ports


6.1 Head


If you put the 5.7 intake (smaller ports) on the 6.1 heads (larger ports) there is a mismatch, and you won’t be getting any gains from it, and possibly even leaks, not sure on that. You can bolt them to it, but you need to use a 6.1 intake or similar, which normally runs into clearance issues on the truck engine. There are two timing covers, on for the cars and one for the trucks. The accessories mount it totally different locations. It’s doable but a lot of work to make it fit. Do some searching and googling, there are countless threads on this subject.

Wow. That's a lot of good information. Thank you. I'll definitely be coming back to it as I won't retain all of it right now. But yeah, i am planning on a complete rebuild. I had googled rebuild kits and found some master kit ones for like 6-700. The one I was looking at came with a new cam, not valves or anything tho. Would that be a stock one? I'm going to have to learn quite a bit but thankfully there is Google, YouTube and ramforum.com lol. I don't plan on order any parts for a while, prolly next fall. My plan of attack for now is this. I'm picking it up tomorrow and bringing her to her new home and family lol. I'm going to start tearing it down right away. Once I'm down to the block, I'll probably do the wire wheel to save some money. Before I paint it I'll do as you suggested and bring it to a machine shop. I might send the heads along as well, depending on the money situation and wife situation. I'm pretty sure I would want them to change out the valve seats as these are known for failure. Once getting those back I'll start painting them and ordering parts. And assembling it as I can. Once it's done I was planning on just hanging onto it just in case but eff that, after all of that work, it's going in my truck asap lol. I'm going to have to do alot of research to make sure I order the right parts. I think that'll be the hardest part.

What's the difference being boring it and honing it? I noticed honing tools at car parts place but no clue what it means. I know boring means basically making the walls bigger which I think you end up having to do if the cylinder walls are messed up. Does it provide better performance? Like do ppl do it, even if it isn't needed?

Thanks again for responded with all that info.

 

[chrisp2493]

Honing the block with a drill and honing stones is basically like sanding the cylinder walls. It gives the walls a new clean surface. It will remove a tiny bit of material off the walls, and it’s not a precise process. It kinda takes a steady hand to do it right, you don’t want to go too far.
Boring the block is having the machine shop drill out the cylinder to a larger size. Normally it goes in a .010, .020 and .030 size depending on the condition of the block. If you have the block bored you MUST install oversized pistons to match the overbore. When I rebuilt my first block, I had a cylinder that was slightly out of round and most of the cylinders were close to out of spec. I just did a hone on the walls, installed new factory sized pistons and went with it. Turns out I had some bad oil loss on the out of round cylinder. This was the cylinder that had the major oil blow by. It was so bad it covered the spark plugs, so this cylinder wasn’t even firing.

If you do all that and need to install new piston heads, I HIGHLY recommend you to take the pistons to a machine shop and have them install the press fit wrist pins. The wrist pin is like .002 or something larger then the hole they go into, so they head the connecting rod to expand the metal, and then push the wrist pin into the hole. It takes a pretty trained hand to heat them to the right temp and get the pin in, you only have a few seconds before the metal cools and shrinks back. I tried this, overheated the rod, that made the end weak and the pin slipped out shortly after the rebuild was finished. That’s why I have experience rebuilding this engine...twice haha


To remove the pistons from the rods, I had to use a shop press. Unless you have a special holder or support, it will crack the pistons from the force of removing them. That’s ok if you plan on replacing them.

The main bolts for the crank caps, head bolts and connecting rod bolts are all Yield To Torque (YTT) and will need replaced on the rebuild. Basically the bolts stretch as they are torqued down and can’t be reused. The cam and crank bolt should be replaced as well. You are going to need a torque wrench on the rebuild

The cam that would come in the stock rebuild kit would be a stock cam, you’ll have to actually buy an aftermarket cam if you want a performance one.

In my signature is a link to my Flickr albums, I have a ton of pictures from the two rebuilds if that’s something that would help

 

[Jbaker33]

Alright, so here's a recap of my weekend. I was supposed to go and get the motor on Saturday. Well I ended up sick all day, puking,etc. So Sunday morning I'm feeling a little better and we decide to make the 2 hour drive north. About 20 mins away from dudes house, I barely have time to pull over before I'm getting sick again. Wife drives the rest of the way, only having to pull over once more. I planned on taking off the valve covers and digging into it but just couldn't do it. Thankfully the guy was pretty big and did most of the work. My wife is pretty strong but with me having spinal surgery 2.5 months ago, wasn't going to happen. We got it unloaded in the garage in its temporary home (want to pick up an engine stand soon) and about 5 mins later, I had to start digging into it lol. I ended up taking the intake man off, the passenger side valve covers off and then the pass head off before I called it good.


I took a few pics and like I said, I'm making sure to label bags with what the screws came off of. That's why worst trait, I'll forget where or how they went lol. But as you can see, this had a sludge problem. Not horrible I guess but not good either. (Before anyone sees it and notices, I know I need to buy new head bolts for install lol. I just wanted to make sure everything was in its place.


Also, what is this black soot on top of the piston heads? The upper and lower most parts peeled right off. Oh, I'm not sure if you're supposed pull your rocker arm off and pushrods before you remove the head but I did not. I don't think they got messed up or anything and I'm prolly replacing them anyways but figured if mention that they got hung up on the head for me.


Not sure if I mentioned it or not, but this is my first time doing this so please, take it easy on me eh? Lol. Thanks for all of the advice. I'll def update progress as i go. Wife should be happy I'm not tinkering with the truck now. Although, it is acting like it doesn't have any power or something is holding it back. I may have eff up the throttle body when I cleaned it a week back. Threw the code p2110. Only flashed bolt once or twice, never went into limp mode and only symptom that's new is lack of power, at all ends, speeds and rpms. And maybe one day I'll be able to defeat whatever is causing my truck to shake...

I'm no longer going to appologize for these long comments lol. Once I get going I can't stop. I want to be as detailed as possible to give the whole picture. Speaking of, here are the pics I took last night. Im about to dig in a bit more now.

 

[Jbaker33]

Not sure if it will show in the order I put it but in pic number 4, those are MDS delete plugs right? But i still need to get a programmer and delete mds other wise it'll throw codes correct? Is that stuff on the pistons a sign of something horrible or just sludge build up? I am replacing them but just wondering what that is and what caused it. Thanks for looking

 

[Jbaker33]

I only took a quick look at the one head because the Mrs was impatiently waiting for me to come in. I'll take a look and a pic here in a little bit

 

[chrisp2493]

Those white plugs on top of the engine, underneath the manifold are the MDS plugs. All of the blocks from 03-08 have the oil galleries for the MDS system, but they aren’t used until 2006, which will have an electric solenoid valve instead of a plug. They are reusable, it’s just a plug with a rubber o-ring around it. They get a crud build up around them and they do get alittle brittle. The trick to remove them is to take out the screw, then softly tap them a few times with a rubber mallet or a hammer with a thick rag around the end. You will hear an audible popping sound when they pop loose, then just pull them out. If you are deleting the MDS system completely I would just use the plugs in the engine you rebuild.
The crud on the pistons is probably some oil blow by or just carbon build up. Looks like it’s been used a lot without much regular maintenance

 

[Redtruck-VA]

You are in for a interesting experience if you use the right mind set. And will learn a considerable amount about your hemi engine. These are great engine with hugh potential. Chris has a lot of specific information and is a great source for part numbers having recently rebuilt his hemi. You will find a engine stand will help you immensely during the rebuild. Sounds like you are having issues with your truck now and it might be better to address those issues before digging into the new engine. Perhaps start a thread on requesting help with the diagnosis and repair of it.. good luck..

 

[Jbaker33]

Those white plugs on top of the engine, underneath the manifold are the MDS plugs. All of the blocks from 03-08 have the oil galleries for the MDS system, but they aren’t used until 2006, which will have an electric solenoid valve instead of a plug. They are reusable, it’s just a plug with a rubber o-ring around it. They get a crud build up around them and they do get alittle brittle. The trick to remove them is to take out the screw, then softly tap them a few times with a rubber mallet or a hammer with a thick rag around the end. You will hear an audible popping sound when they pop loose, then just pull them out. If you are deleting the MDS system completely I would just use the plugs in the engine you rebuild.
The crud on the pistons is probably some oil blow by or just carbon build up. Looks like it’s been used a lot without much regular maintenance

Yeah, it's going to be fun trying to get that crap out. Other than engine degreaser, any ideas? I know they are aluminum but I'm not sure how much beating they can take. That said, what about power washer? Not with fine tip but a wider one, from further back? Bad idea?

I didn't get anything accomplished on the new to me motor yet as I was looking into mine. I told my wife it's either my tranny or it's the throttle body. It has been shifting funny and sometimes late. Doesn't matter where on rpm, mph, gear I'm in, it just bogs down whenever I give it gas, unless I really hammer It. Even then, my baby is sick . I know I'm probably repeating myself so I apologize. I'm going to do some more research before I make a new thread.
Now, in your guys opinions, if I was only able to add "performance" parts(anything other than stock is performance to me lol) to either the top end, cam, valves 6.1 springs etc, or bottom end, 6.1 crankshaft, rods etc, which o one would you do and Why? Mine is a daily driver, I guess you could call her pavement princess, even tho I live in the country on crappy dirt roads. I have have done much off roading since I got it, been too busy fixing it to have time to break it lol. I do tow a 22 ft camper alot in the summer. No more than 100 miles trips, that gets expensive, fast. I get 7 mph calculated while towing. I guess I'm wanting better towing and performance out of it and possibly better mileage. Alot if guys are getting better mph with MDS disabled.
Anyways here's a couple of pictures of the heads. I did get the rocker arms off. Next up, after I trouble shoot my truck will be taking out the valves, springs etc, then moving on to the other head, then the block

Oh, also, I pulled this plugs from my running motor. I've never been able to read plugs. Do these look normal? It seems a bit much to me as i changed them around 750 miles ago.

 

[Redtruck-VA]

Lets get your running engine sorted out before playing with your rebuild? The two you are showing are looking ok. What did you gap them too? Are they from the same cylinder? We need to see one plug from each cylinder. Don't mix them up, we are looking for one that is burning odd. Typically you can expect a plug to widen it's gap by .001 every 2000 miles if I remember right. You mention the trans not shifting right. Have you checked it's fluid level. The 545 is sensitive to the level being spot on. I would recommend replacing the egr and pcv to help with trouble shooting. Take pictures of the old parts and do not throw them away. PVC should rattle when shakened. The Throttle Body you cleaned, did you remove it to clean? Did you inspect and clean the air filter? You mentioned dirt road and the filter can get dirty. Check the TB plug pins and make sure it is tight. On the fuel rail the is a pressure test point. Check the pressure carefully. You should have a solid 58psi at idle. Post pictures and let see what you find.

 

[Jbaker33]

Lets get your running engine sorted out before playing with your rebuild? The two you are showing are looking ok. What did you gap them too? Are they from the same cylinder? We need to see one plug from each cylinder. Don't mix them up, we are looking for one that is burning odd. Typically you can expect a plug to widen it's gap by .001 every 2000 miles if I remember right. You mention the trans not shifting right. Have you checked it's fluid level. The 545 is sensitive to the level being spot on. I would recommend replacing the egr and pcv to help with trouble shooting. Take pictures of the old parts and do not throw them away. PVC should rattle when shakened. The Throttle Body you cleaned, did you remove it to clean? Did you inspect and clean the air filter? You mentioned dirt road and the filter can get dirty. Check the TB plug pins and make sure it is tight. On the fuel rail the is a pressure test point. Check the pressure carefully. You should have a solid 58psi at idle. Post pictures and let see what you find.

Sorry, I don't know if I have ADD or what it is but I literally have 10 things going on in my head at one time. I'm sure you can see that through my words lol. Yes, they are from the same cylinder. From cylinder number 1. I loosened up the ones from cylinder 3, which were almost loose, but ran out of time last night. They actually came pre gapped at .44 and the two i checked were still there. I did check the fluid level and I could maybe add a half quart. It's not bright pink, but it's not dark either. You can tell it's ready for some new fluid/filters change. It doesn't smell burnt either. Just like its about at the end of its life. I have cai on my truck and that's actually pretty clean. I did take off the throttle body when I cleaned it. And I didn't think about it at the time but I sprayed the actuator blade with cleaner. Found out afterwards it's best to use a rag with it on there. I'm thinking that's why it threw the code but I can move it by hand and it doesn't get stuck. I have been trying to find a fitting or adapter for the fuel rail test port for a few weeks. I bought a test kit/gauge yet it doesn't have any Schrader valve adapters for testing on fuel rails. That's a good tip about the pcv, I didn't know if there was a way to check it. I'm going to get out there a little bit later, after I start the heater lol. Thanks

 

[Jbaker33]

Alrighty, so I haven't updated in a while so I figured it was time. After renting a spring compressor that didn't work and a crank puller that needed a deep well 5/16 socket on the end to make it long enough, I took a few days off. I ended up buying an oem brand spring compressor. Still not the correct tool but will get the job done if you use either channel locks or vise grips to hold the tool together against the springs. This thing is dangerous so I would recommend another way. Only reason I preceded is I was pissed off and, eff it, I had a decent life lol.

When I first bought the motor the guy told me he had gotten it from his nephew (who works as a manager at oil change place) who said it needed to be rebuilt due to a bottom end knock. Tbh, as I'm pulling apart the motor I'm expecting some sort of horrible or at least noticeable damage. Now, I know he said bottom end knock but after seeing the way he took care of this motor, I figured it would have damage elsewhere too. It wasn't until I put the motor on stand and started removing main and rod bearings that I noticed it. He had spun a bearing right at the flex. After removing everything I checked the crank shaft and there is a little impression (I'll post pic of area) between where the bearing spun and part of crank next to it. (Sorry don't know all of the terms yet, as mentioned first time doing this alone. I'm still undecided on what/how I'm going to rebuild this motor. I figured while I'm rebuilding it, make it nasty or even mildly offensive, other wise, where's the fun in stock? The only problem is I told my wife in order for her to give me the ok, that the rebuild kits were only like 800. Well she seems pretty adamant about staying close to that number but that's not going to happen lol . So, with all of that in mind, this is my daily driver so I don't want to make it where I get 8 mpg on the highway but I also would like to beef it up. Meaning I would like to make it faster or stronger than your average big horn SLT. My budget is on the really low end so no stroker kits for me lol. As I mentioned (at least I think) I am for sure going to rebuild whole drive train. Valves, seals, springs, seats. And hopefully an aftermarket cam. Also the guides if that's possible. I'm going to reuse what I can or use it off of my currently running motor (i.e alternator, ac, steering pump) to save some money.

Sorry if this is confusing and I know someome mentioned the things I could do but after looking it up, I can't get most of the things i would like to. You literally have to say "hey dummy, buy this..." Thanks again for all of the input guys. I'm also going to post a video later in different section of my belt chirping that I can't figure it out.

 

[Jbaker33]

Crank shaft where the bearing was spun and rode along the surface, wearing it down.

I circled the side that is thinner than the other and also, on the second pic, the "lip" that was created. I'm pretty sure I know the answer but wanted your guys opinions

 

[chrisp2493]

Best to take the crank to a machine shop and get their opinion on it. If you need a new crank, I have a spare that I’m trying to get rid of cheap, but it needs alittle cleanup. I gotta drop it off at my machine shop guy and have him take a look at it.

Since you have the heads off a big c clamp style spring compressor works great on the valve springs. Might be able to rent on at an auto parts store.

If you want a decent 30 hp bump I would suggest a Comp 260 camshaft and a tune. It’s a good cam for a bigger truck, it’s more of a torque grind cam. I ran it for a few months before I stroked my engine


You can polish a ****, just don’t pretend you have anything more then a shiny ****.
I bleed Ram Trucks