Staying off the radar possible?

[Cmz2800]

Hey all,

So I got to thinking with all this invasive tracking of our vehicles, do they make something that can 100% take me off the tracking systems?
A woman at the dealership where I bought the truck changed a radio setting from her computer… you guys don’t think we’ve let them take this to a very uncomfortable place, where they can do this sort of thing without our consent?

 

[Hagar1]

Hey all,

So I got to thinking with all this invasive tracking of our vehicles, do they make something that can 100% take me off the tracking systems?
A woman at the dealership where I bought the truck changed a radio setting from her computer… you guys don’t think we’ve let them take this to a very uncomfortable place, where they can do this sort of thing without our consent?

It is getting to the point where personal information is becoming more profitable than a vehicle sale.

 

[Mlarv5]

Yes it is possible, but at what cost? Most of the nanny gadgets are for comfort, and ease of use.

Your cell phone tracks you every minute of the day, also listening to you th entire time (think Hey SIRI, Hey Google), how do they know you called them if they aren't lististing?

People love the self driving, parking, wipe my chin, freedom to make phone calls from any where or place. They give-up the right to privacy because of this,

So to answer your question
Make cars and trucks like back before 1990. Simple little computer to run the fuel, power windows, and basic AC, and go back to a land line for a phone.

 

[Docwagon1776]

You've got two separate things going on.

Nobody is tracking you, nobody gives enough of a **** to do so. Your truck is on the cell phone network, and your general location and movement can be recreated by querying cell phone records if somebody (like me, in law enforcement) has your truck's info an sends a warrant to the cell provider. Some manufacturers also collect data in aggregate for analysis with no personal info attached, but I don't think Ram does.

The second thing is over the air updates. That's more of a concern. Your truck, only the infotainment system can be updated OTA. Many current vehicles can have the drivetrain programming updated as well. A non-zero number of updates have bricked cars from manufacturers like Ford, requiring a tow to get fixed. To date there's been no bad actor taking over the update system, no disgruntled employees getting a brick code to go out, etc, but it's a (very slim) possibility it some day could.

The easiest way to address the first is remove the cell chip or disconnect the antennae. The easiest way to address the second is not buy a vehicle where OTA affects anything that really matters.

 

[Curmudgeon]

And let's not forget our brain waves...

 

[Cmz2800]

You've got two separate things going on.

Nobody is tracking you, nobody gives enough of a **** to do so. Your truck is on the cell phone network, and your general location and movement can be recreated by querying cell phone records if somebody (like me, in law enforcement) has your truck's info an sends a warrant to the cell provider. Some manufacturers also collect data in aggregate for analysis with no personal info attached, but I don't think Ram does.

The second thing is over the air updates. That's more of a concern. Your truck, only the infotainment system can be updated OTA. Many current vehicles can have the drivetrain programming updated as well. A non-zero number of updates have bricked cars from manufacturers like Ford, requiring a tow to get fixed. To date there's been no bad actor taking over the update system, no disgruntled employees getting a brick code to go out, etc, but it's a (very slim) possibility it some day could.

The easiest way to address the first is remove the cell chip or disconnect the antennae. The easiest way to address the second is not buy a vehicle where OTA affects anything that really matters.

Let me be more clear: if the government wanted to shut off my vehicle (atm) they can do so by simply contacting the manufacturer and asking them to do so. Let’s say that like many European countries, if the government decided that we’re not following orders (the civilians) and they wanted to keep us from moving around they could shut us off.
Does anyone make some type of ecu add-on that can take my car off the grid, like older vehicles?

 

[Docwagon1776]

Let me be more clear: if the government wanted to shut off my vehicle (atm) they can do so by simply contacting the manufacturer and asking them to do so. Let’s say that like many European countries, if the government decided that we’re not following orders (the civilians) and they wanted to keep us from moving around they could shut us off.
Does anyone make some type of ecu add-on that can take my car off the grid, like older vehicles?

Re-read my second paragraph. Your current vehicle is not capable of drivetrain OTA updates and can't be bricked remotely. Infotainment updates only on your Ram.

Newer vehicles *do* have drivetrain capability. Stellantis accidentally bricked some Wrangler 4XEs. See my more in depth thread here: https://www.ramforum.com/threads/ota-update-bricks-jeeps.220641/

The real danger isn't the US gov't shutting down vehicles, there's so many steps that have to break down to get there it's not a realistic concern at this point. Your concern the "government just calls the manufacturer" is based entirely on ignorance of legal process. These companies aren't going to slit their economic throats at a request. They won't give law enforcement information without warrant/subpoena. Businesses are so gun shy now places like Wal-mart want a warrant for surveillance video of public areas if the business isn't the victim. I work Homicide, and have worked joint operations with federal agencies for organized crime, I deal with this routinely.

The real danger is bad actors (slim chance) or the upcoming regulations where your vehicle must monitor you for intoxication or distracted driving. Congress already mandated the study but there's no conclusion on what the vehicle must do yet. It is entirely possible that the vehicle will pull over on it's own if it thinks you are sleepy or drunk. Then it's a computer making the decision with zero ramifications. See the link in the thread above.

 

[Cmz2800]

Re-read my second paragraph. Your current vehicle is not capable of drivetrain OTA updates and can't be bricked remotely. Infotainment updates only on your Ram.

Newer vehicles *do* have drivetrain capability. Stellantis accidentally bricked some Wrangler 4XEs. See my more in depth thread here: https://www.ramforum.com/threads/ota-update-bricks-jeeps.220641/

The real danger isn't the US gov't shutting down vehicles, there's so many steps that have to break down to get there it's not a realistic concern at this point. Your concern the "government just calls the manufacturer" is based entirely on ignorance of legal process. These companies aren't going to slit their economic throats at a request. They won't give law enforcement information without warrant/subpoena. Businesses are so gun shy now places like Wal-mart want a warrant for surveillance video of public areas if the business isn't the victim. I work Homicide, and have worked joint operations with federal agencies for organized crime, I deal with this routinely.

The real danger is bad actors (slim chance) or the upcoming regulations where your vehicle must monitor you for intoxication or distracted driving. Congress already mandated the study but there's no conclusion on what the vehicle must do yet. It is entirely possible that the vehicle will pull over on it's own if it thinks you are sleepy or drunk. Then it's a computer making the decision with zero ramifications. See the link in the thread above.

Great read. Let’s see where this goes

 

[Docwagon1776]

Great read. Let’s see where this goes

It's funny how little attention this gets and it's the biggest threat to the motoring public we've ever had. EV threads get a ton of ItZ AbUT CnTRl! posts with zero evidence, you shove a legit threat with legislative backing in front of people and it's radio silence. Pretend problems are more fun than real ones, I guess.

Personally, I'm not buying **** with OTA drivetrain update capability until I'm too old for it to matter. If I live long enough I can't drive myself, hopefully self driving features will be advanced enough to be trustworthy and let me retain my independence (or move to somewhere with a functioning mass transit system).

 

[rzr6-4]

If you are that worried about being tracked by some nefarious force, go buy an old beater vehicle, a faraday bag for your phone, 7 days worth of food and water rations and an AR15. If I was genuinely that worried about my nice new tech being used against me, why buy it in the first place?

 

[Docwagon1776]

If you are that worried about being tracked by some nefarious force, go buy an old beater vehicle, a faraday bag for your phone, 7 days worth of food and water rations and an AR15. If I was genuinely that worried about my nice new tech being used against me, why buy it in the first place?

While your point is taken, depending on where you live it's insufficient. I think people worried about this sort of thing forget they are on publicly visible roads, meaning a public space with no expectation of privacy. Cameras are ubiquitous in all but the most rural areas. Gov't and private cameras can monitor license plates automatically. As an example, many Target stores and Wal-marts have cameras aimed specifically to capture license plate data.

Now, there's no central repository for the information. If I want to track someone after the fact, I can query FLOCK cameras, and then visit businesses along the route, get warrants for their systems, etc. To tell you how good they've gotten, they can identify stickers on your car and AI search for images of it. Jewelry store crews from South America used to fly in to the US, rob jewelers, and then flee. A common thing was to use shaving cream to cover the license plate a few blocks out from the store. It obscures the plate, then it's easily wiped off to go back to "normal looking". I don't need your plate anymore and can search by the type of car and obscured plate...

Before the fact, I just get a GPS warrant, have a covert team tag your vehicle, then I can "follow" you remotely. Before the technology was there, it was just undercover surveillance. I've done that as well, but very little since I had a patrol rifle and was usually in a semi-marked as overwatch if the covert guys got into the ****.

It really does go back to none of us are that important. You aren't the main character, nobody gives AF about following you just to see what you're doing. If you're a **** bird doing **** bird things, that's different.

 

[rzr6-4]

While your point is taken, depending on where you live it's insufficient.....
If you're a **** bird doing **** bird things, that's different.

I have no illusions about what you are saying 100%. If you are in town, you are being watched. Even in rural communities where I'm from, enough people have Ring doorbells and what not to where if you drive down the block, someone has it on video. I'm more so referring to when the evil (insert bad man group here) is coming for you and you are on the run on the country side, through the rivers and up the mountains. If you are still worried about being tracked in that case, see my post above. But like you said in town, you're boned regardless. Should someone actually care enough to try of course, which is unlikely.

 

[Curmudgeon]

He has no idea why yet, and for no apparent reason, Ted Kacynski's
blood pressure went nearly off-scale high.

 

[rvance]

He has no idea why yet, and for no apparent reason, Ted Kacynski's
blood pressure went nearly off-scale high.

He's been dead for 3 years now. We should have listened.

 

[bings]

If you think the government will have to go through the auto company to access your vehicle if they really want to your deluded. The laws are bent or broken everyday not to mention the thousands of laws already on the books that are blatantly unconstitutional. That being said unless your a serious bad guy like a terrorist or saying something bad about israel they probly wouldnt use extreme measures. Id imagine that any vehicle with automatic braking can be controlled ota. You are being tracked and listened to every minute of the day by your phone for surveillance sure, but they also make billions off of selling your data. Have to decide what luxurys you want and how much intrusion your willing to deal with. Classic rams are sweet anyways

 

[Marshall]

My 14 sport has nav that is still the original factory setting, so don't know if they could find my truck or not. I did upgrade my phone from a old flip phone when I got new hearing aids with blue tooth, I think 4 yrs ago to a old I8.
Mind you I know no one wants me other then the kids and such.

 

[Docwagon1776]

My 14 sport has nav that is still the original factory setting, so don't know if they could find my truck or not. I did upgrade my phone from a old flip phone when I got new hearing aids with blue tooth, I think 4 yrs ago to a old I8.
Mind you I know no one wants me other then the kids and such.

I'm not sure on Canada specs or providers. In the US, I'm pretty sure 2014 would still be 3G and on ATT's network. All the major US carriers have shut down 3G service, so there would be no historical data from cell phone towers (as it can't connect to a tower any longer).

It's not impossible to track a 3G device in real time, but I can't think of a plausible scenario where there wouldn't be multiple easier/smarter/cheaper alternatives.

 

[Rlaf75]

If you think the government will have to go through the auto company to access your vehicle if they really want to your deluded. The laws are bent or broken everyday not to mention the thousands of laws already on the books that are blatantly unconstitutional. That being said unless your a serious bad guy like a terrorist or saying something bad about israel they probly wouldnt use extreme measures. Id imagine that any vehicle with automatic braking can be controlled ota. You are being tracked and listened to every minute of the day by your phone for surveillance sure, but they also make billions off of selling your data. Have to decide what luxurys you want and how much intrusion your willing to deal with. Classic rams are sweet anyways

Its been proven already that our government colluded with social media platforms to skirt the constitution in order to sensor certain people so I wouldnt put it past the government working with automakers for nefarious reasons as well.

 

[Rlaf75]

I can tell you that my 21 Ram is the last new vehicle that I buy. Its not so much the "tracking" that bothers me, it's all the technology in it. Yes there's potential for tracking for nefarious reasons but all of the new vehicles are just over complicated over engineered crap. I will drive 21 as long as I possibly can but the next vehicle i buy will a late 70's early 80's something or other. Something that has like 4 wires to make it run, not 400 miles of wire. In my opinion, all of this "safety" and convenience technology is making people dumber. Instead of actually paying attention and turning your head to look where youre going everyone becomes too dependant on it all. I have a 12" screen with a great backup camera that I hardly use because still look at my mirrors. I use the camera to back up close to something because it truck is too big for most parking spots. Your best bet for getting a little further off grid is to buy an older vehicle

 

[TRK_GANG74]

I’ve got better things to worry about and cameras are everywhere in public these days. Plus I’m not a criminal, terrorist, or paid protestor causing havoc. If someone is that paranoid over tracking their vehicle you might need a place off planet by yourself.