Synthetic Oil

[HEMIMANN]

Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30 is what Travis posted. More antiwear additives than 5W-30.

I'm investigating if it's OK to use this with single injector GDI engines. These are subject to LSPI, of course, and worse with a turbo.

I can no longer read, so @Travis8352 is for me.

Mobil Spec Sheet says oil meets or exceeds API SP LSPI test spec.

Imma try it in Mazdas this spring.

 

[BLUKTY2]

In addition to my RAM, I own a 23 Lexus with a dual injection turbo 4 banger, bought new. I have been using PUP 5W-30 for the last few oil changes, starting at around 1,000 miles despite it being specked for 0W-20 for the NA market. Unlike some, I am not concerned with the warranty for reasons that I will not get into here. This particular engine (T24A-FTS) was introduced in 2021 and is now being used in several models across the Toyota/Lexus lineup.

Just for my own curiosity I did a UOA through Oil Analyzers at 4,326 miles on the oil and 15,311 total on the engine. I was specifically looking to find out if this engine was a fuel diluter or not, and if so, how bad. The results speak for themselves; moderate fuel dilution that brought the already thin PUP 5W-30 down below grade. The UOA is attached.

Since I already have the oil in my inventory, I plan on one more oil change using the PUP for a very short OCI and will not use it again. I will be moving on to M1 ESP 0W-30 for this engine. I am no expert on this subject but I have read and researched enough to feel confident that this is a smart move. The MB certifications tell me what I need to know about its LSPI mitigation.

Would I use the ESP 0W-30 in my RAM? NO, at least not at this time. I think that it has been well proven that the Hemis like their Moly and mine has been sounding so quiet on HPL P+ 5W-40 that I don't plan on changing this strategy anytime soon. IMHO HPL has more than one perfectly formulated oil for the Hemi.

 

[HEMIMANN]

In addition to my RAM, I own a 23 Lexus with a dual injection turbo 4 banger, bought new. I have been using PUP 5W-30 for the last few oil changes, starting at around 1,000 miles despite it being specked for 0W-20 for the NA market. Unlike some, I am not concerned with the warranty for reasons that I will not get into here. This particular engine (T24A-FTS) was introduced in 2021 and is now being used in several models across the Toyota/Lexus lineup.

Just for my own curiosity I did a UOA through Oil Analyzers at 4,326 miles on the oil and 15,311 total on the engine. I was specifically looking to find out if this engine was a fuel diluter or not, and if so, how bad. The results speak for themselves; moderate fuel dilution that brought the already thin PUP 5W-30 down below grade. The UOA is attached.

Since I already have the oil in my inventory, I plan on one more oil change using the PUP for a very short OCI and will not use it again. I will be moving on to M1 ESP 0W-30 for this engine. I am no expert on this subject but I have read and researched enough to feel confident that this is a smart move. The MB certifications tell me what I need to know about its LSPI mitigation.

Would I use the ESP 0W-30 in my RAM? NO, at least not at this time. I think that it has been well proven that the Hemis like their Moly and mine has been sounding so quiet on HPL P+ 5W-40 that I don't plan on changing this strategy anytime soon. IMHO HPL has more than one perfectly formulated oil for the Hemi.

Thanks for sharing this important UOA.
It's disappointing to see dual injector GDI dilutes oil with unbirned fuel. I'm in the woods at the moment so difficult to compare to my UOA with single injector GDI engime last spring using same oil. Please cross post in UOA Thread. If you find my UOA, maybe you can report the difference in dilution between single and dual injector GDI engines.

Yeah, PUP 5W-30 API SP is barely a 30 wt new so its a 5W-20 with any dilution or shear down. I'm gonna switch too to M1 ESP 5W-30 to get stout 30 wt.
P.S. Mazda requires 5W30 for their turbo engines, 5W-20 without turbo.

 

[tjfdesmo]

I think we'll buy another Grand Cherokee with a port injected Pentastar to stave off the GDI disease. What a scam.

 

[Burla]

In addition to my RAM, I own a 23 Lexus with a dual injection turbo 4 banger, bought new. I have been using PUP 5W-30 for the last few oil changes, starting at around 1,000 miles despite it being specked for 0W-20 for the NA market. Unlike some, I am not concerned with the warranty for reasons that I will not get into here. This particular engine (T24A-FTS) was introduced in 2021 and is now being used in several models across the Toyota/Lexus lineup.

Just for my own curiosity I did a UOA through Oil Analyzers at 4,326 miles on the oil and 15,311 total on the engine. I was specifically looking to find out if this engine was a fuel diluter or not, and if so, how bad. The results speak for themselves; moderate fuel dilution that brought the already thin PUP 5W-30 down below grade. The UOA is attached.

Since I already have the oil in my inventory, I plan on one more oil change using the PUP for a very short OCI and will not use it again. I will be moving on to M1 ESP 0W-30 for this engine. I am no expert on this subject but I have read and researched enough to feel confident that this is a smart move. The MB certifications tell me what I need to know about its LSPI mitigation.

Would I use the ESP 0W-30 in my RAM? NO, at least not at this time. I think that it has been well proven that the Hemis like their Moly and mine has been sounding so quiet on HPL P+ 5W-40 that I don't plan on changing this strategy anytime soon. IMHO HPL has more than one perfectly formulated oil for the Hemi.

with such new engines this bad imagine once the engine gets dirty and injectors aren't perfect running. The only thing you can do is a short interval.

 

[HEMIMANN]

with such new engines this bad imagine once the engine gets dirty and injectors aren't perfect running. The only thing you can do is a short interval.

Also CRC clean the throttle body once a year and add a catch can. For the PCV fumes. But yeah, nothing to do about fuel and soot in oil but use a heavy 30 wt and change oil no more than 5k miles. Ours was moderately fuel diluted @ 4,600 miles in mixed driving.

And top tier gas and Pl-1 b4 oil changes.
It's a damn shame.

 

[Replacement]

Random question can I get away with a single HPL oil for the following vehicles:

Ram 6.4
GX 470
Subaru Ascent

Quite the spread yes but one oil to rule them all.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Also CRC clean the throttle body once a year and add a catch can. For the PCV fumes. But yeah, nothing to do about fuel and soot in oil but use a heavy 30 wt and change oil no more than 5k miles. Ours was moderately fuel diluted @ 4,600 miles in mixed driving.

And top tier gas and Pl-1 b4 oil changes.
It's a damn shame.

Did you mean SI-1, Red Line?

 

[BLUKTY2]

Thanks for sharing this important UOA.
It's disappointing to see dual injector GDI dilutes oil with unbirned fuel. I'm in the woods at the moment so difficult to compare to my UOA with single injector GDI engime last spring using same oil. Please cross post in UOA Thread. If you find my UOA, maybe you can report the difference in dilution between single and dual injector GDI engines.

Yeah, PUP 5W-30 API SP is barely a 30 wt new so its a 5W-20 with any dilution or shear down. I'm gonna switch too to M1 ESP 5W-30 to get stout 30 wt.
P.S. Mazda requires 5W30 for their turbo engines, 5W-20 without turbo.

I will get this posted to the UOA thread- good idea. I am interested in seeing your UOA that you mentioned so I will look for it. Don't have much time today to devote to the computer but will see what I can do.

I should have mentioned that during the run with PUP that I did the analysis on, this was mainly city driving with little highway miles. Plus I have a heavy foot, so this combination probably contributed to the fuel dilution. I was a bit surprised to see the dilution so high with the dual injection.

Quite frankly I am on the fence between using ESP 0W-30 or 5W-30 but since I have one more fill with PUP I have some time to kick it around. The bottom line is I don't think you can go wrong using either one, especially keeping the OCI's to around 5K miles.

 

[HEMIMANN]

@

I will get this posted to the UOA thread- good idea. I am interested in seeing your UOA that you mentioned so I will look for it. Don't have much time today to devote to the computer but will see what I can do.

I should have mentioned that during the run with PUP that I did the analysis on, this was mainly city driving with little highway miles. Plus I have a heavy foot, so this combination probably contributed to the fuel dilution. I was a bit surprised to see the dilution so high with the dual injection.

Quite frankly I am on the fence between using ESP 0W-30 or 5W-30 but since I have one more fill with PUP I have some time to kick it around. The bottom line is I don't think you can go wrong using either one, especially keeping the OCI's to around 5K miles.

@Travis8352 said 0W-30 ESP has more goodies for antiwear but we don't know how shear stable it is. Antiwear and shear stability are both important to turbo engines because they see higher cylinder pressure under acceleration.

 

[Burla]

Random question can I get away with a single HPL oil for the following vehicles:

Ram 6.4
GX 470
Subaru Ascent

Quite the spread yes but one oil to rule them all.

I don't know, but what you would want is something with a viscosity near 12 with low calcium and decent magnesium, preferably with moly. HPL SC 0w30 CA would be fairly high if that engine is a DI turbo. Unless they changed the formula?

 

[Replacement]

I don't know, but what you would want is something with a viscosity near 12 with low calcium and decent magnesium, preferably with moly. HPL SC 0w30 CA would be fairly high if that engine is a DI turbo. Unless they changed the formula?

Yeah the subby is DI turbo. I figured it would be a bit difficult to hit those extremes.

 

[Travis8352]

@

@Travis8352 said 0W-30 ESP has more goodies for antiwear but we don't know how shear stable it is. Antiwear and shear stability are both important to turbo engines because they see higher cylinder pressure under acceleration.

I havnt seen any UOAs showing shear except for in fuel dilution scenarios

 

[Burla]

Yeah the subby is DI turbo. I figured it would be a bit difficult to hit those extremes.

Not so hard, perhaps HPL might have an offering that covers all. Very easy if you look at other brands 0w30, as you can easily replace the factory spec on the 6.4 with those thicker 0w30's. As for additives, most additive packages are now friendly to di turbo. Just follow that Porsche 0w30 spec I would wager there are a bunch of brands that offer a friendly version to all three cars. Maybe HPL has one as well, but the issue with a lot of their stuff is the tbn and how they get it. Maybe some HPL users will chime in as it is now one of the more popular brands. Look at their passenger vehicle offering uoa's. The euro offerings are going to be the ones that also have that thick viscosity that can replace hemi 6.4 spec..

 

[HEMIMANN]

T

I havnt seen any UOAs showing shear except for in fuel dilution scenarios

Thanks again. Not thinking straight @ deer camp.

Of course others have used M1 ESP 0W-30 in non GDI engines. lol
Thx for reporting shear stability.

 

[BLUKTY2]

@

@Travis8352 said 0W-30 ESP has more goodies for antiwear but we don't know how shear stable it is. Antiwear and shear stability are both important to turbo engines because they see higher cylinder pressure under acceleration.

I havnt seen any UOAs showing shear except for in fuel dilution scenarios

Thank you both for your comments. Still leaning towards the ESP 0W-30 over the 5W-30 but will keep an open mind on this. I think that either oil will be better than the PUP 5W-30 that I am using now. How the mighty have fallen....

 

[Travis8352]

Thank you both for your comments. Still leaning towards the ESP 0W-30 over the 5W-30 but will keep an open mind on this. I think that either oil will be better than the PUP 5W-30 that I am using now. How the mighty have fallen....

Nothing wrong with either! Their just different in the same family. No ester/moly in the 5w-30

 

[Icewolf]

$329 for a trans service is a steal! But yeah dealers are so against changing fluids early. I remember when I first got my truck I asked the dealer to change the oil at 500 miles so it was recorded in their system. They legit wouldn't do it because it was quote "a waste of oil". I explained I wanted to get any break in material out and they said its not necessary. No problem, I went home and did it myself.

But wtf, I will be the judge of what is a "waste of oil" not you. If I'm paying, why should they care?

Sounds like the same BS at Toyota lol

its the same **** at Honda, and every manufacturer. I got into an argument with this ******* service writer and told him "I'm the customer" If I want the oil change, just do it. I couldn't believe he wouldn't write it up lol I never went back there, and I did it myself. I couldn't believe it. Subaru told me the same thing when I had bought my Sti back in the day. I asked about break in metal contaminants in the motor, or gearbox and diff fluids from fresh gears wearing in, they told me it wasn't necessary lol. something about the tolerances are different then back in the day, so there won't be a lot of break in material. idk if i believe that.

 

[Hemi395]

Wife and I just picked up a 2025 Wrangler. Best part is we found one with the 3.6 so no turbo/GDI bs!

Given most modern engines are "pre broken in" at the factory, what everyone's thoughts on when to do the first oil change? I changed the oil on my truck and our Grand Cherokee at 500, 1500, and then at 5000. Do you guys think thats overkill or a good idea?

Looking to keep the Wrangler for the long haul, not just trade it in in 3 years...

 

[Yardbird]

Something I found for us Pentastar people....

Nice! As an former Pentastar design engineer I am slightly bias but the engine is really high quality. Few points from the development using tens of millions of dollars in analysis and testing regarding the oil and durability..... The lighter oil was chosen mostly for fuel economy BUT engineering is the science of compromise. You help one thing but hurt another. A thicker oil will reduce timing chain and tensioner wear because the center timing chain idler doesn't go fully hydrodynamic till about 1650rpm on 5w-20. So, a thicker oil will lower that number slightly and with general loads/speeds the engine spends a lot of time around 1500-1750 rpm with the 8 speed. So thicker oil is a win there. Additionally, the earlier engines had what was called the "McDonald's Arches" in the idler bearing which was intended in making a more uniform distribution but in actuality acted as a knife edge. This design was changed around 2014 to a smooth bearing. So overall timing chain issues will likely follow the 2011-2014 engine years more than 2014+. Where you lose.... The head is very complicated with a Type II valve train. Meaning lots of things to pressurize and pump up at start up. A thicker oil didn't do so well here (on long sit times +cold start) and contributed to a overall increased engine wear especially in the head and cam bearings. Last point. This engine needs occasional WOT runs if you want it to last. Granny cycling is bad for it. So bad for it we actually created a new granny cycle test during the cylinder #3 misfire issue. The highest wear is in the valve guides, because of tight valve stem seals (for emissions, reduce oil burn). They basically dry out. When you go WOT/high rpm/load you get some fresh oil in there and this keeps the wear down. Thicker oil might not help this condition but we also change the valves/guides/seals in 2014+. Not sure the impact. Cheers! Kevin PS. Turn off stop start and do not run e85 if you are concerned about engine wear. Eats the engine alive.