When Not to Use Redline Thread

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HEMIMANN

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RatBlog is really just a comparison of engine oil relative film strengths. That has some.use, but in and of itself isn't sufficient for application to an engine with inherent inadequate lubrication like Hemi Gen III engines.

Hence this forum. Oil additives and oil filters are more critical to these engines than relative film strength, which is only concerned with wear longevity - not early design failure.
 
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Burla

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It's not even "just" the tick; Redline has made my entire engine sound quieter both while idling and under load, there is just less "mechanical chatter" for lack of a better term.
There are two considerations here, viscosity or additives. In your situation most of the time it is just viscosity, as in any thicker oil can lessen chatter. However, because you went to the trouble to get uoa's and you see you are shredding visc, you know that in your situation the additives and/or saturated base oils are contributing to you have less chatter. If your uoa's didn't show shredding visc, my guess would be any thicker oil can benefit the chatter of a random engine, but by actually committing to the process, you found out some pretty valuable information with your hemi. The bad news, to continue to get those benefits you will have to keep spending the extra money for a high performance oil. In many rams this wont be the case, they could just go thicker.
 
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Burla

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RatBlog is really just a comparison of engine oil relative film strengths. That has some.use, but in and of itself isn't sufficient for application to an engine with inherent inadequate lubrication like Hemi Gen III engines.

Hence this forum. Oil additives and oil filters are more critical to these engines than relative film strength, which is only concerned with wear longevity - not early design failure.
has some use for sure, he took general information to a good catch all place. It is just that we have a specific issue, and his tests aren't much use for hemi tick like you said.
 

Sherman Bird

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Just categorizing ram forum members bad experiences so as to alert other ram forum members of potential risk and possible fixes, thought that was crystal clear as I put the number having the result. Perhaps you haven't seen the threads were 100 ram forum members have their experiences, I guess your retort would be isn't that like 100 sam elliot's proclaiming Guts! Glory! Ram!?
Actually, I'm alluding to the hacking of people's minds. I had a McDonald's Advertisement Exec. whose 911T I worked on back in the '80's. We frequently debated over consumer trends, what were and still remain triggers for consumer decision making that are both subliminal and conscious. Many purchases from a meal to a truck are predicated on emotion... influenced by portraying a moment in time to evoke memories and emotions to make a decision which has far reaching consequences.

It does a certain amount of good to find "like minded people" especially when seeking sympathetic views and insightful remedies that "worked for them". I'm neither denying nor confirming the legitimacy of, say, a few dozen people who swear by this oil or that filter which, allopathically stopped their hemi tick. But, even with your oil analyzing efforts, the question remains... what was/is the root cause of the failure? Is the problem limited to one element? That idea is far outside of scientific an physics reality where different levels of research must be done, and in control groups to insure total accuracy and eliminate variables so as to insure accurate results.... Then a mega study must be performed, again, in controlled environs.

The concept doesn't fit Corporate models who must codify shareholders. If our bretheren on these forums constitute even .05% of the overall market, then we are considered irrelevant. It's macro-economics, plain and simple. Big corporate will schmooze the consumers with noble sounding claims of priority to customer satisfaction and statements of world class leading product development, and, most prominently, They love to wag their prideful hubris in our faces with the awards they've garnered in the media/ marketing platforms. I never gave a ******'s damn about some model of vehicle which I bought to fill my needs as having been number one on some platform or being voted a consumer best. There is too much "good old boy" climate for these awards to mean much. Whether FoMoCo or Mopar or anyone touts their truck as being built tough, or being the best selling truck in the past 48 years, etc. I'm interested in what the vehicle does for MY needs, not to be one of the club because of some fantasy advertisement point.

You might be aware of the 5.4L 3-valve Ford truck engines that eat cam phasers and timing components. This affected millions of Expeditions and trucks from 2005 thru 2014, the last year of this motor production. No efforts were ever tendered to recall them. The repair is 4500 dollars average. A new engine job is 7-8 grand. And the customer has to bear the cost. And no special oil or filter mitigated the inevitability of the failure. It's not if, it's when the failure will occur. This, on top of a proclivity to breaking spark plugs upon attempted removal? Yeah.

Bottom line? We in these forums do need each other, because, frankly, Corporate isn't going to rise up and really do the right thing by we working peons out here in the big bad world. And IF there is a way to delay that inevitable outlay of huge repairs, or, worse, buying a replacement vehicle, then great.

To really see that nothing has ever changed, watch some of the ads for all the different cars and trucks made by all car makers from back in the 30's 40's, 50's, and 60's.... Read between the lines and you'll see that the only thing that HAS changed in their hyperbole!!! Peace!
 
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Burla

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That's it guys we have been exposed, you dont really have quiet hemi's, the tick is still there, but rather your mind was high jacked, lol. The hubris of the good ol boys plugged your ears and that is what muffled your ticks. You know dude, you don't get it, when you get hemi tick in the truck you spent 10's of thousands on, you know if it goes way or it is still there, everything else is talk.
 

BBNtrucks

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RatBlog is really just a comparison of engine oil relative film strengths. That has some.use, but in and of itself isn't sufficient for application to an engine with inherent inadequate lubrication like Hemi Gen III engines.

Hence this forum. Oil additives and oil filters are more critical to these engines than relative film strength, which is only concerned with wear longevity - not early design failure.
I yield. https://youtu.be/8lj4mLhAI4Y?list=RDCMUCp-nhl9hSvsrPLCZf9VtOrw
 
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HEMIMANN

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It's an issue with the quality of the camshaft lobes! Not a oiling issue per se.

This is a statement without any supporting data. There are hundreds of posted data points in the Synthetic Oil Thread that show insufficient lubrication is either the sole cause, or a primary cause.

Unless you have something of substance to add, unkowledgeable statements aren't a contribution.
 
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Burla

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If it is cam lobs, why would only one fail at a time like we see?

It certainly isnt the cam lobs, you need proof here it is...

kmyvgod-jpg.449439

imcvwvj-jpg.449440
 

BBNtrucks

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OK I yield. What do you think about this comment from Mike Zobel tagged in the link from post #86. If you don't want to watch all the video at least watch the last two minutes. basically saying it is an oiling or failure to oil that may have a not so expensive solution. Now the comment from Zobel. " Looking at the factory PCM tunes for the common Hemis, they tend to target a 500-550 RPM hot idle speed with 5W-20 oil. This is done to ensure the lowest emissions in these bread-and-butter engines. Meanwhile in non-MDS Hemis, they target a 700-725 RPM idle and mandate a 0W-40 Synthetic oil, and SRT engineers put out a TSB saying 15W-50 Synthetic was okay in warmer climates (TSB 09-011-06). As you can imagine, low emissions are not as much of a priority for these low production SRT and manual trans vehicles, so the engineers can recommend what the engine actually needs. So if you wanted to improve longevity, I'd start with the easiest thing: tuning in a higher idle speed for more oil pressure, and using thicker synthetic oil. And for more in-depth hardware changes, ditching the solenoids like you said and possibly switching to the high-volume SRT or even Melling oil pumps. "
 

Sherman Bird

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OK I yield. What do you think about this comment from Mike Zobel tagged in the link from post #86. If you don't want to watch all the video at least watch the last two minutes. basically saying it is an oiling or failure to oil that may have a not so expensive solution. Now the comment from Zobel. " Looking at the factory PCM tunes for the common Hemis, they tend to target a 500-550 RPM hot idle speed with 5W-20 oil. This is done to ensure the lowest emissions in these bread-and-butter engines. Meanwhile in non-MDS Hemis, they target a 700-725 RPM idle and mandate a 0W-40 Synthetic oil, and SRT engineers put out a TSB saying 15W-50 Synthetic was okay in warmer climates (TSB 09-011-06). As you can imagine, low emissions are not as much of a priority for these low production SRT and manual trans vehicles, so the engineers can recommend what the engine actually needs. So if you wanted to improve longevity, I'd start with the easiest thing: tuning in a higher idle speed for more oil pressure, and using thicker synthetic oil. And for more in-depth hardware changes, ditching the solenoids like you said and possibly switching to the high-volume SRT or even Melling oil pumps. "
Going way back in the way-back machine, I remember these issues regarding engine wear/catastrophic failures, etc. in GM vehicles back in the 80's and early 90's. The resulting consensus among GM engineers about minimum oil pressure was that pressure per se isn't a determining factor alone. GM had (has?) oil warning lights to come on at or below 3 PSI.... and they maintained that, at idle, 6 PSI was (is?) plenty to keep an engine alive for many miles. Case in point, my 1986 Pontiac 6000LE wagon sported the 2.8L V-6. It had about 9 PSI at hot minimum idle, in gear, with A/C on. (It had an idiot light, so I had no idea what pressures were like at highway speed.) That car went 140,000 miles with no issues with the engine, so?

The engineers touted oil volume along with film strength and film "shear" properties as a more urgent set of specs to address.
Fast forward to today, and the issues we are seeing seem redundant when we look at history.

My late uncle was a lubrications engineer for NASA back in the 60's. I remember him touting oils in those days with graphite as an additive to stave off engine failures.

From my perspective, I remember that getting 40 thousand miles out of an engine before major internal repairs were needed was quite an accomplishment. This was when I first got into this trade professionally in the 70's. Today, we routinely see 200 to 300 thousand miles put on cars and light trucks.

Maybe the higher longevity is due to improved lubricants. Considering the fact that Zinc Phosphate along with Graphite additives have been severely reduced by EPA mandate, it may be no wonder these issues exist across manufacturers.

I personally add Zinc phosphate to my own high mileage vehicles and will bear the brunt of slightly shorter catalytic converter life. After all, I'd rather lay out a grand for a factory converter than nearly 5 figures for a new/ reman engine.
 
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Burla

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Bird said something that I like? new day.

Yes zinc it up, as we know redline is 400ppm more zinc, a little relevant since this is a redline thread. But, it doesnt stop there, they also boost moly 6-8 times what a shelf oil is. But, this is a when NOT to run redline thread, in the situations in this thread when not to run redline, you can boost these additives (moly or zinc) in your oil choice without the issues posted in this thread.
 

HEMIMANN

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No, it's a band-aid to inadequate design. Internal engine components should not be designed to fail at a 5-10% rate. This is a catastrophic failure - mission disabling and time-consuming.
 

Sherman Bird

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No, it's a band-aid to inadequate design. Internal engine components should not be designed to fail at a 5-10% rate. This is a catastrophic failure - mission disabling and time-consuming.
I heard that the Hemi will no longer be produced after next year. HMM.
 
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Burla

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good ridens, the hemi was never my favorite engine, good in theory, bad in practice. I guess if I towed I would try and make it work, and for sure my opinion is skewed because of my transmission and gear combo, but the damn thing was knocking like he hockey sticks since 3500 miles new, if not for this "bandain". But we surely agree on the fact an engine design should never require additives the same way these hemi's do imho. I bet they will still call it a hemi in some way. I bet somehow the hemi name will survive somehow, time will tell.
 

HEMIMANN

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JHoward

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No, it's a band-aid to inadequate design. Internal engine components should not be designed to fail at a 5-10% rate. This is a catastrophic failure - mission disabling and time-consuming.





I agree and very aware that the newer HEMI Eagle engine has internal engine component(s) that are poorly constructed and that alot of these engines have failed.

However, even "at a 5-10% rate" of failure with the total amount that have been manufactured is a low percentage and it's obvious FCA doesn't seem it necessary to even place an service bulletin on this cam/lifter issue? I don't know if FCA has done that and it's most definitely not an Safety Issue for it to be a mandated repair. Those folks whom have the lifter/can failure and are still under the factory warranty are having the dealer repair/replace defective parts?, then, again I don't know how many those are.

Yes. In my view for myself to be certain that I don't fall into that % of HEMI tick/cam/lifter failure, I will deem it for me to use "insurance" in reference for an oil strategy instead of a "band-aid".

A minor cut on my finger requires a band-aid, but insurance is having band-aids available and most certain hoping that I avoid getting cut ... that may not be a good example of my point in reference to my terming insurance as a better way of saying oil strategy is just being an band-aid. jm2¢.

My HEMI that I have now and the many that I have owned in the past didn't have lifter/cam failure and I had acquired many care free miles on them ... the occasional dry start (poor quality oil filter-MOPAR MO-339) and drive train clatter sometimes.

So, maybe it could be referred to some folks that an oil strategy to be a "band-aid" if they have HEMI tick?

I consider using Red line 5w/30 and a good quality oil filter (ROYAL PURPLE 20-820) and regular oci's to be a good way to for me to use the term "insurance".

* bottom note: I'm at 1500 miles on Red Line 5w/30 and a PUROLATER BOSS PBL 24651 oil filter as insurance for my HEMI engine and it is doing great thanks to you folks that are very knowledgeable on the HEMI engine in this Forum. *
 
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HEMIMANN

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5-10% failure is an extremely high failure rate for a catastrophic failure for a mass production product.
I worked in this industry for 32 years. The goal was 6 sigma for quality. That's one failure per million products.
That's not an opinion. That's fact. Chrysler failed.
 

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Yep.

Still my point was is how I lable my oil strategy ... it is insurance for using Red Line 5w/30 and a good quality oil filter.

I cannot debate on the fact that FCA/Chrysler failed on the HEMI Eagle engine.

However, I knowing what the possible outcome of having cam/lifter failure might could be if I were to keep using inadequate lubrication for a potential self imploding engine that is represented in my 2017 RAM Owner's manual for the sake of the environment or fuel economy, or whatever.

I'll opt. for the proven road of preventive maintenance (insurance) using Red Line oil ... this is what I have learned here from you folks here in the RAMFORUMS.
 
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