Cam/Lifter failures in relation to oil level

[Tach_tech]

As Chrisbh17 said, 20% is not the failure rate. 20% idle time is on its way to becoming excessive according to FCA.

As for the lifter, I couldn’t feel any rotational movement with it in the holder. They’re held pretty well.

 

[indept]

The "more than 20% is excessive" reference is to how much IDLE time on the engine, not failure rate.

Regarding that point, i find it interesting that my normal city/highway driving has yielded about a 16% idle vs driving hours on my engine. Also noted when I first bought my truck, there were more idle hours than drive hours (I suppose normal for a truck that just gets test driven?)

So am I already at risk, even with just 8000 miles? I have MaxCare of course, but would hate to rely on that in case FCA/dealer doesnt feel like honoring it (the horror...I change my oil by myself! )

I would think those 1st miles aren't causing any issues or we would see much higher failure rates. Of course nobody knows what the actual failure rate is, we just go by the ones that come to complain about it here.

 

[weldguy]

The cam lobe failures on the police Charger engines in our Sheriff Office cars have been unattributed to long idle times. Unfortunately, they are serviced with conventional motor oil soon after the service reminder is displayed.

 

[Fitz-0518]

Tach always good to have your input. I recognize that issues like the Hemi valve train failures get concentrated on a brand forum. Most owners of 5.7 and 6.4 engine never have a problem. BUT,,I know first hand that our dealer who has the service contract for our local PD cruisers is replacing an average of one engine per month. I also understand that a police cruiser engine is subjected to severe duty use. If excessive idling is not a cause for the cam and roller failures, then it must be the suppliers quality control on the parts. What ever the failure rate is, FCA and the dealers know this is a problem. When my 2018 6.4 went in at 100 miles for odd sounding start up noise, the first thing the tech checked for was the valve train. Turned out to be exhaust. From your experience, do you think that it is random poor quality parts that cause this.

 

[Tach_tech]

Tach always good to have your input. I recognize that issues like the Hemi valve train failures get concentrated on a brand forum. Most owners of 5.7 and 6.4 engine never have a problem. BUT,,I know first hand that our dealer who has the service contract for our local PD cruisers is replacing an average of one engine per month. I also understand that a police cruiser engine is subjected to severe duty use. If excessive idling is not a cause for the cam and roller failures, then it must be the suppliers quality control on the parts. What ever the failure rate is, FCA and the dealers know this is a problem. When my 2018 6.4 went in at 100 miles for odd sounding start up noise, the first thing the tech checked for was the valve train. Turned out to be exhaust. From your experience, do you think that it is random poor quality parts that cause this.

Honestly I don’t know the true reason. My own speculation is some of it may be faulty parts. However maintenance, oil, and idle time I believe are the biggest contributors to the issue.

Any police officers I’ve talked to that they have hemi chargers in their fleets have experienced these issues. Idle time seems to be the killer for them. Police vehicles tend to idle a good portion of their life. Maybe a heavier oil may help with them I don’t know.

I’ve also talked to some that used SHO Taurus for their pursuit vehicles. Apparently they tend to eat themselves as well, but it’s the turbo seals that go out, again from the extended idling.

 

[Iiplus]

In the threads I've read about cam/lifter failures,never once have I seen the question asked concerning the oil level in the crankcase.I've seen all the questions asking what oil was used and how often the oil was changed etc,but nobody asks about the oil level and how it was maintained ,ie: was the oil level maintained at the full mark or was the oil level let drop down a quart before it was topped up etc. As far as I know the cam lobe and lifter wheel still get their lubrication the old fashioned way like a flat tappet cam,which is by splash/spray off the rotating crankshaft. If the oil level has a habit of being down some from full,there's less oil spray making it to the cam lobe,then if the oil level is maintained at the full mark all the time.Just wondering if that might also add to the failure rate of the cams and lifters,albit it might be a very small contributing factor,but I wonder if it still might be a factor to consider.

 

[Fitz-0518]

Honestly I don’t know the true reason. My own speculation is some of it may be faulty parts. However maintenance, oil, and idle time I believe are the biggest contributors to the issue.

Any police officers I’ve talked to that they have hemi chargers in their fleets have experienced these issues. Idle time seems to be the killer for them. Police vehicles tend to idle a good portion of their life. Maybe a heavier oil may help with them I don’t know.

I’ve also talked to some that used SHO Taurus for their pursuit vehicles. Apparently they tend to eat themselves as well, but it’s the turbo seals that go out, again from the extended idling.

Thanks

 

[Silver Goose]

In my opinion, the long idle hours can be mitigated by the use of electricity powered backup oil pumps to maintain a min. oil pressure/flow. I know some will say they don't need another piece of equipment, but would you rather pay for a $500.00 to $1000.00 oil pump or a $5000.00 engine?

Thanks, Tach Tech for checking the lifter rotation. when you checked for rotation was it on the cylinder that went down. I don't mean to beat this horse anymore, but the only variable that I can see is the lifter. It is the only item that can move and change its position in relationship to the cam lobes. I have been out of auto mechanics for some time so I can be wrong, but being wrong only adds to my knowledge base.

Larry

 

[Tach_tech]

I checked all the lifters and none were able to rotate.

 

[lipidboy]

I encourage the addition of 1.2 ounces of Archoil additive per quart of oil. The science behind archoil is sound. Jay Leno's mechanics are believers now. Helps particularly well in older flat tappet engines and no need for corrosive zinc or other additives.

 

[Hemi_Express2013]

I don't know guys. Excessive idle times? My truck is 5 years old. Less than 30,000 miles. 1400 hours of idle time. It pulls on average 10-15 wot(6400+) runs a week for the last 4.5 years. Has a high lift cam (.618) somewhere there of for a 5.7. (Yes, I retained the MDS lifters. ) Oil pressure at idle is normally 52-53psi @800-850rpm(kinda lopey rock to her) but can go as low as 48psi on a decel. I've seen the Oil pressure under wot conditions hit 80psi with 5-20 Red line.

I do change the Oil and filter(RP) twice a year with about 5000miles a year.

I can only speak from my own experience. I've been waiting for a lifter fail. As of today, it hasn't happened???

I've done the old school warm up since day one of the cam /head install. With the 3000 stall TC and shift pattern, it won't think of shifting a gear till 3200rpm with 3800-4200 the norm. With 60% throttle, you have to ride it all the way.

I say all this to say: Idling can't be a problem. But if someone is seeing 30psi low 40's cold start up at idle that's the problem.

 

[Tach_tech]

If idling isn’t a contributing factor why are fleet vehicles like police vehicles experiencing these issues at a much larger rate than you’re average vehicle?

In my personal experience which I actually have first hand experience with this issue idling is a contributing factor.

Will every vehicle that has this failure have high idle times? Not it won’t. However the vast majority of vehicles I see with this issue have a very high idle to drive hours. It’s not the amount of idle hours that’s the issue, it’s the amount spent idling vs driving.

 

[CopperheadHemi]

At my work we service a fleet of Sheriff's Department Chargers and Rams. Several 2013 Chargers have had camshaft/lifter failures, all of them right around 80-100k miles. They also have about 10 Hemi Rams in the fleet, 2013-17 models, one of them had a camshaft failure, it was at 180,000. The truck received a Jasper engine, all of the cars received new cam and lifters, well except one, which got a used engine....then got cam and lifters. We use Service Pro synthetic blend 5w20 in all of them, and at the time was using Pro-Tec (cheap Wix) filters, the Wix representative was making claim that using the lower priced filters was possibly the cause. I don't know if he was just trying to make a sale or not, but we now use 57899 on the Chargers and 57060 on the trucks, no failures since then, but at the same time, just about all the 2013 Chargers have already had new camshafts installed.

 

[Wild one]

I don't know guys. Excessive idle times? My truck is 5 years old. Less than 30,000 miles. 1400 hours of idle time. It pulls on average 10-15 wot(6400+) runs a week for the last 4.5 years. Has a high lift cam (.618) somewhere there of for a 5.7. (Yes, I retained the MDS lifters. ) Oil pressure at idle is normally 52-53psi @800-850rpm(kinda lopey rock to her) but can go as low as 48psi on a decel. I've seen the Oil pressure under wot conditions hit 80psi with 5-20 Red line.

I do change the Oil and filter(RP) twice a year with about 5000miles a year.

I can only speak from my own experience. I've been waiting for a lifter fail. As of today, it hasn't happened???

I've done the old school warm up since day one of the cam /head install. With the 3000 stall TC and shift pattern, it won't think of shifting a gear till 3200rpm with 3800-4200 the norm. With 60% throttle, you have to ride it all the way.

I say all this to say: Idling can't be a problem. But if someone is seeing 30psi low 40's cold start up at idle that's the problem.

By the looks of it,you've replaced the cam with a Comp cam,i'm also gonna assume you replaced the lifters with new ones at the same time to,so you've bypassed the soft cam theory with the aftermarket cam.I've yet to hear of anybody with an aftermarket cam having any issues with the cam lobes going south.Probably due to better tolerances when it comes to surface hardening on the lobes.You're not the average owner that still has the stock cam,so you're probably not going to have the same issues.

 

[SoCalLuke]

At my work we service a fleet of Sheriff's Department Chargers and Rams. Several 2013 Chargers have had camshaft/lifter failures, all of them right around 80-100k miles. They also have about 10 Hemi Rams in the fleet, 2013-17 models, one of them had a camshaft failure, it was at 180,000. The truck received a Jasper engine, all of the cars received new cam and lifters, well except one, which got a used engine....then got cam and lifters. We use Service Pro synthetic blend 5w20 in all of them, and at the time was using Pro-Tec (cheap Wix) filters, the Wix representative was making claim that using the lower priced filters was possibly the cause. I don't know if he was just trying to make a sale or not, but we now use 57899 on the Chargers and 57060 on the trucks, no failures since then, but at the same time, just about all the 2013 Chargers have already had new camshafts installed.

2012 Ram 2500 power wagon here with the cam/lifter issue. Tear down started today :-(

-> when replacing the cam / lifters (and other parts.) Does that solve the problem, or are they going out a 2nd time? after another 80-120k miles?

 

[CopperheadHemi]

2012 Ram 2500 power wagon here with the cam/lifter issue. Tear down started today :-(

-> when replacing the cam / lifters (and other parts.) Does that solve the problem, or are they going out a 2nd time? after another 80-120k miles?

I wish I could tell you. Probably later this year or next year I think I could give a clearer answer. Just gotta get some more miles and engine hours on them!

 

[Gero]

Looks like the chances of our 5.7 and 6.4 will never make it to 350-400k miles without experiencing lifter/cam failure despite proper maintenance.

Haven't heard many 2016 or newer have these problems but maybe that's because they're still too new.

 

[Deadpool89]

If anybody can help please comment

I have installed the mds delete kit, new cam,hellcat lifters and mds plugs. I have a diablosport 2 Predator that I used to turn off the mds system. When I went to crank the truck it struggled to start had to give it gas and hold the rpms at 2000 or above to keep it running only code is a multiple cylinder misfire I have checked all my plugs and connections the only thing I can find funny is that my tuner is not picking up oil pressure but the truck gauge is we hooked up a manual gauge and it read 30 psi I believe at the sensor also the tuner is showing at start up the spark timing is -60 and when you give it gas it jumps to +60 then back to negative -60 when you let off gas and since I cleared the dtc it has not come back if anybody has any ideas I’m open to try them please help wife is on my case about the $3000 I have put in this so far if you need additional info please ask I’ll be glad to provide

 

[Wild one]

If anybody can help please comment

I have installed the mds delete kit, new cam,hellcat lifters and mds plugs. I have a diablosport 2 Predator that I used to turn off the mds system. When I went to crank the truck it struggled to start had to give it gas and hold the rpms at 2000 or above to keep it running only code is a multiple cylinder misfire I have checked all my plugs and connections the only thing I can find funny is that my tuner is not picking up oil pressure but the truck gauge is we hooked up a manual gauge and it read 30 psi I believe at the sensor also the tuner is showing at start up the spark timing is -60 and when you give it gas it jumps to +60 then back to negative -60 when you let off gas and since I cleared the dtc it has not come back if anybody has any ideas I’m open to try them please help wife is on my case about the $3000 I have put in this so far if you need additional info please ask I’ll be glad to provide

Did you read through this,if not read it,and see if anything rings a bell that you might of missed.

https://www.ramforum.com/threads/how-to-4th-gen-hemi-cam-installation.82531/

 

[buddy guy]

If anybody can help please comment

I have installed the mds delete kit, new cam,hellcat lifters and mds plugs. I have a diablosport 2 Predator that I used to turn off the mds system. When I went to crank the truck it struggled to start had to give it gas and hold the rpms at 2000 or above to keep it running only code is a multiple cylinder misfire I have checked all my plugs and connections the only thing I can find funny is that my tuner is not picking up oil pressure but the truck gauge is we hooked up a manual gauge and it read 30 psi I believe at the sensor also the tuner is showing at start up the spark timing is -60 and when you give it gas it jumps to +60 then back to negative -60 when you let off gas and since I cleared the dtc it has not come back if anybody has any ideas I’m open to try them please help wife is on my case about the $3000 I have put in this so far if you need additional info please ask I’ll be glad to provide

i can't say on cars, but anytime I've had a cam/lifters changed in a motorbike, i've also planned on a tune soon after if not immediately, as well. my understanding is the computers in 4 wheel vehicles is far more sophisticated than most motorbikes and can compensate for timing, etc. but you still might need a tune after the change. now, having said that, for some reason my brain is thinking a vacuum problem?