Can we please get past the dealership model?

[Silver21Ram]

I just talked with a GM Dealer last week who said he would order custom combo I want. Maybe times are changing finally? I think their sales are finally slowing down.

Nope.

 

[Rlaf75]

Everytime someone brings their vehicle to my purchasing dealer they get a survey mailed or emailed to them

 

[Silver21Ram]

A man entered the showroom and was greeted by a salesperson.
The man announced that he would be buying a new Crown Victoria and said that he would be "taking the salesperson to school on how to beat the dealer into making no money on this sale".

He pointed to the 5 year old Vic that he owned and said that when he bought that one, the dealer admitted to losing money on the sale. He stressed that he knew all that we know and it would prove impossible to give him a bad deal or for us to have a good one!
He further said that he had bought dozens of vehicles in his life and had never had a dealer "rip him off". Likewise, there was never a dealer who made any money off of him.
The only Crown Vic in the showroom was the one he wanted to buy. He didn't need to drive it. He said that having him drive it was only a "dealer trick" to get him to sign a bad deal!
We were looking forward to seeing his negotiation skills but got little more than him making offers that we readily refused.
When all was said and done, he didn't get what he wanted for his trade-in. Much less.
He paid msrp and bought an extended warranty.

This was 23 years ago. And people are still making the same mistakes today.
You buy a new vehicle every 5 years and "negotiate" for an hour. Maybe 2 or 3 hours.
We do this everyday all day long with dozens of customers with salespeople.

Customers and buyers have complained about dealers since the second car was offered for sale. But you love to tell friends, neighbors and co-workers about the great deal you got at Friendly CDJR !

 

[Hootbro]

A man entered the showroom and was greeted by a salesperson.
The man announced that he would be buying a new Crown Victoria and said that he would be "taking the salesperson to school on how to beat the dealer into making no money on this sale".

He pointed to the 5 year old Vic that he owned and said that when he bought that one, the dealer admitted to losing money on the sale. He stressed that he knew all that we know and it would prove impossible to give him a bad deal or for us to have a good one!
He further said that he had bought dozens of vehicles in his life and had never had a dealer "rip him off". Likewise, there was never a dealer who made any money off of him.
The only Crown Vic in the showroom was the one he wanted to buy. He didn't need to drive it. He said that having him drive it was only a "dealer trick" to get him to sign a bad deal!
We were looking forward to seeing his negotiation skills but got little more than him making offers that we readily refused.
When all was said and done, he didn't get what he wanted for his trade-in. Much less.
He paid msrp and bought an extended warranty.

This was 23 years ago. And people are still making the same mistakes today.
You buy a new vehicle every 5 years and "negotiate" for an hour. Maybe 2 or 3 hours.
We do this everyday all day long with dozens of customers with salespeople.

Customers and buyers have complained about dealers since the second car was offered for sale. But you love to tell friends, neighbors and co-workers about the great deal you got at Friendly CDJR !

Sounds like my late Grandfather. Overpaid and bought every protection and warranty packaged they offered in finance and also had every service done at the dealership. Go in for a simple oil change and there was always $1500 of some other frivolous work added on. Tried talking to him about it but he was adamant everything would be recouped at trade in time because they would give him more (they never did) because of it being dealer serviced.

He dies a week after buying a then new Dakota and it was all I could do to get them to buy it back and break even to help my Grandmother settle his estate because of all the extra crap he added on.

 

[Dean2]

Silver Ram - I get exactly what you are saying. Dealerships know every trick in the book to separate you from your money, many far less than ethical. Not something I would be bragging about on a buyer/owner forum.

The only defence for buyers is to not get sucked into the dealer, take you prisoner methodology. First they grind you in the salesman's office, take hours to settle on a price that should take 20 minutes, then grind you in the finance office for every penny you have for insurance, add ons, warranties, undercoating et all, then have a big guy grab you by the ankles as you are leaving and shake you upside down to see if they missed any.

Only way for the consumer to protect themselves is to take a specific build they want, email it to 5 dealerships and get them to quote you an "ALL IN" taxes and fees included out the door price. Do not accept bids on vehicles that do not have almost exactly what your build sheet laid out, adding things like 4:10 gears, 50 gallon tanks, etc. later is VERY expensive.

Give them a timeline to get back to you and clearly indicate there will be no back and forth, guy with the lowest bid, gets the purchase. If you can wait on a factory order, even better but make sure the quoted price is fixed to time of delivery. Buy all add ons like 3M, undercoating/Crown, paint sealant etc on the open market. Shop the extended MOPAR warranty the same as you did the truck, and arrange the financing yourself. If you have a used car, sell it for cash to a private buyer or outright a dealership after getting a couple of bids, but at least you know what you actually got for it.

I bought my last two new vehicles this way. The last one was the 2021 2500 that I factory ordered to get EXACTLY what I wanted. Between 6 dealerships that quoted there was a $14,000 spread in the price. I bought from a dealer that was actually not the cheapest, by $500, as they have a great reputation for service and customer care, which has proven to be true. I got the truck I wanted for what I think was a fair price, and it was over $12,000 off the Build it Yourself, quoted MSRP.

It is work to do it this way, and many don't want to put in the work. If you insist on"convenience" don't complain about paying too much. Dealership has to pay overhead and make a profit. At least try to find a semi-honest one to work with.

 

[Defuse]

But you love to tell friends, neighbors and co-workers about the great deal you got at Friendly CDJR !

No, I don't....

 

[HEMIMANN]

Instead of expecting millions of car buyers to become occasional expert negotiators, I turn to an expert car shopping service. There are private ones, and larger ones, don't use one that takes dealer kickbacks or advertising. That's just another dealer scam.
I used Consumer's Checkbook, thought it was better than Consumer Reports.
Neither accepts manufacturers funds of any kind.

 

[gwilburn]

I blame the manufacturer 100%... My latest purchase experience has been the absolute worst. The dealer knows almost nothing because (they say) the system doesn't tell them. The website is horrible and incorrect.
I recently got a powersports survey from Arctic Cat - it was obvious they are testing the waters for online sales. That's a $20,000 vehicle. There is absolutely no way on this earth that I'm buying something with that price tag online - no way, no how.

As Director of IT at my company, if our systems worked like these I would be fired.

As it stands now, I've ordered a Ram Limited and no one can tell me EXACTLY what I'm getting. So NO. I'm not doing the online thing.

 

[HEMIMANN]

I blame the manufacturer 100%... My latest purchase experience has been the absolute worst. The dealer knows almost nothing because (they say) the system doesn't tell them. The website is horrible and incorrect.
I recently got a powersports survey from Arctic Cat - it was obvious they are testing the waters for online sales. That's a $20,000 vehicle. There is absolutely no way on this earth that I'm buying something with that price tag online - no way, no how.

As Director of IT at my company, if our systems worked like these I would be fired.

As it stands now, I've ordered a Ram Limited and no one can tell me EXACTLY what I'm getting. So NO. I'm not doing the online thing.

Yep - online is just a pre-sale tool, is all. Still gotta pound pavement. I got to annual car shows to sit in a bunch of vehicles - usually eliminate any that are uncomfortable.

 

[redvetram]

I guess I missed something…. What is wrong with your RAM?

 

[Tulecreeper]

You buy a new vehicle every 5 years and "negotiate" for an hour. Maybe 2 or 3 hours.
We do this everyday all day long with dozens of customers with salespeople.

Customers and buyers have complained about dealers since the second car was offered for sale. But you love to tell friends, neighbors and co-workers about the great deal you got at Friendly CDJR !

I buy a new truck every 15+ years. This is my 3rd one since 1987. This current one, I did the build-your-own thing online, then took that sheet to the dealership, and the first sales person to approach me I handed it to him and said, "Sell me this truck." If he looks at the sheet and even for a second balks, I thank him and walk away. This guy didn't balk, and he didn't waste my time.

 

[Silver21Ram]

Silver Ram - I get exactly what you are saying. Dealerships know every trick in the book to separate you from your money, many far less than ethical. Not something I would be bragging about on a buyer/owner forum.

The only defence for buyers is to not get sucked into the dealer, take you prisoner methodology. First they grind you in the salesman's office, take hours to settle on a price that should take 20 minutes, then grind you in the finance office for every penny you have for insurance, add ons, warranties, undercoating et all, then have a big guy grab you by the ankles as you are leaving and shake you upside down to see if they missed any.

Only way for the consumer to protect themselves is to take a specific build they want, email it to 5 dealerships and get them to quote you an "ALL IN" taxes and fees included out the door price. Do not accept bids on vehicles that do not have almost exactly what your build sheet laid out, adding things like 4:10 gears, 50 gallon tanks, etc. later is VERY expensive.

Give them a timeline to get back to you and clearly indicate there will be no back and forth, guy with the lowest bid, gets the purchase. If you can wait on a factory order, even better but make sure the quoted price is fixed to time of delivery. Buy all add ons like 3M, undercoating/Crown, paint sealant etc on the open market. Shop the extended MOPAR warranty the same as you did the truck, and arrange the financing yourself. If you have a used car, sell it for cash to a private buyer or outright a dealership after getting a couple of bids, but at least you know what you actually got for it.

I bought my last two new vehicles this way. The last one was the 2021 2500 that I factory ordered to get EXACTLY what I wanted. Between 6 dealerships that quoted there was a $14,000 spread in the price. I bought from a dealer that was actually not the cheapest, by $500, as they have a great reputation for service and customer care, which has proven to be true. I got the truck I wanted for what I think was a fair price, and it was over $12,000 off the Build it Yourself, quoted MSRP.

It is work to do it this way, and many don't want to put in the work. If you insist on"convenience" don't complain about paying too much. Dealership has to pay overhead and make a profit. At least try to find a semi-honest one to work with.

As a dealer sales manager or general sales manager for 35 years I preferred to work the deal desk, train salespeople and meet our customers.
Working for high volume stores is where the real "car guys" were in the '70's to early 2000's.
Dealers today are not that way.
Young sales forces with limited training, and most who are only "passing by" while looking for other opportunities, are the norm.
Many stores today only require the salesperson to land you on a particular unit, make sure you drive it, and get you back and seated in the showroom. A manager directs from there.
Preferably, they want your credit app first.
The next question will be do you have a trade, how much do you want for it, and what is your range desired in a monthly payment?
If you are still sitting at this point, you will be buying a vehicle, and they will tell you what it's going to cost you!
After that, it's a process for your expected participation.
Dealerships do not "rip you off".
They only make the money that you "allow" them to make.
The biggest mistake the customer most often makes is buying without an understanding of what the vehicle is costing them. There are other mistakes but thats the big one!
Now you are better prepared to make a more favorable deal for yourself!!
Thank me later!

 

[HEMIMANN]

The biggest mistake is falling for the "what payment are you looking for?" routine. Deceptive marketing to people who aren't financially savvy.

Yes, buyer beware, but dealers having become expert at being financial hucksters, despite the many government protections attempted.

Edmund's did an expose on modern dealers by planting an employee into various dealers to report unfiltered antics. All the dealers were looking for is employees "wanting to make a lot of money". If you can smile, speak, and have a pulse, you're in. Terrible. Go read the expose if you want to debate us further.

 

[Dusty]

Because this has become a long thread, my apologies if this has already been mentioned. Most states have franchise laws preventing manufacturer direct sales and service, and not just for automobiles. Most states believe a franchise system increases competition that can impact actual price paid and quality of service. As bad as anyone might think this arrangement is bad, consider the alternative if manufacturers controlled the pipeline from factory to the consumer directly. I think it's a little naïve to think all problems would go away, and maybe some would be worse.

If the manufacturer controlled the outlet strategy it could result in a consolidation (reducing) of showrooms and service facilities increasing the distance to get repairs.

Manufacturers could firmly control the price across a local, a wide geographic area, or even across their entire market. This actually occurred in my area when Ford took over all the dealers in my county. Uniform pricing forced buyers to go to dealers outside the county for better deals. After a few years Ford has returned to independent control.

The argument against dealers makes the assumption that the customer experience would be much better, but I haven't heard any good reasons why or how. There's no reason staffing issues are going to change nor result in an increase in customer dissatisfaction

With the exception of Tesla, who lost a challenge to Michigan's franchise laws last year, I really don't believe most manufacturer's are fond of the direct sales model anyways. Having a dealer to sell and service their product provides a liability buffer that they would logically lose if they sold direct.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 97823 miles.

 

[Defuse]

Because this has become a long thread, my apologies if this has already been mentioned. Most states have franchise laws preventing manufacturer direct sales and service, and not just for automobiles. Most states believe a franchise system increases competition that can impact actual price paid and quality of service. As bad as anyone might think this arrangement is bad, consider the alternative if manufacturers controlled the pipeline from factory to the consumer directly. I think it's a little naïve to think all problems would go away, and maybe some would be worse.

If the manufacturer controlled the outlet strategy it could result in a consolidation (reducing) of showrooms and service facilities increasing the distance to get repairs.

Manufacturers could firmly control the price across a local, a wide geographic area, or even across their entire market. This actually occurred in my area when Ford took over all the dealers in my county. Uniform pricing forced buyers to go to dealers outside the county for better deals. After a few years Ford has returned to independent control.

The argument against dealers makes the assumption that the customer experience would be much better, but I haven't heard any good reasons why or how. There's no reason staffing issues are going to change nor result in an increase in customer dissatisfaction

With the exception of Tesla, who lost a challenge to Michigan's franchise laws last year, I really don't believe most manufacturer's are fond of the direct sales model anyways.

In your first paragraph if you replace the word state with lobbyist then the statement would be accurate. Also, Ford is on record saying they want to stop using dealerships. I don't think anyone is asserting that all problems would go away either.

Consolidation of showrooms is happening across the entire retail industry. You can thank Amazon for that. As far as getting repairs done. I would pay more to take my vehicle to an independent repair facility that was authorized to do warranty work over a dealership service center any day of the week.

The argument is that if you take the dealership model away then the opportunities for third parties to influence the sale of the vehicle is removed. Full stop.

 

[Tulecreeper]

Also, Ford is on record saying they want to stop using dealerships. I don't think anyone is asserting that all problems would go away either.

I would pay more to take my vehicle to an independent repair facility that was authorized to do warranty work over a dealership service center any day of the week.

^^^ That ^^^

 

[1stindoor]

I bought my 2018 via email and text with the local dealership and traded in my GMC during the process via pictures and VIN. When we worked out the details I drove to the dealership and signed the paperwork. I was in and out in under 30 minutes.

I just traded my 2018 Ram for a 2023. The dealership in Florida delivered it to me and tomorrow they're picking up my 2018. Everything done via website, VIN, emails and phone calls. If you want to test drive, sit in, walk around, etc. I suggest you plan a time to do that and let them know it's simply a test drive, you're not staying, nor do you want to talk trades, financing, etc. Then do the rest by email and phone.

 

[1stindoor]

The other thing I try to keep in mind is that it is three distinct separate transactions. 1) The value of their vehicle. Not the MSRP, not what they're listing it for...what you're willing to pay for it. 2) The value of your trade. Not just their offer, but what do you think it's worth. This is where you'll have to take an honest look at whether you want to try to sell it yourself, or take the "loss," by trading it in at the dealership. It's not personal, it's strictly business. Finally, 3) the interest rate on your loan. The paperwork guy isn't trying to find you the best terms...he's trying to find you an approval. And the first one to pop up on his screen he'll take to move the process along. Going in well educated on the rates for your credit rating and length of loan will serve you well.

 

[AnthonyRI]

The other thing I try to keep in mind is that it is three distinct separate transactions. 1) The value of their vehicle. Not the MSRP, not what they're listing it for...what you're willing to pay for it. 2) The value of your trade. Not just their offer, but what do you think it's worth. This is where you'll have to take an honest look at whether you want to try to sell it yourself, or take the "loss," by trading it in at the dealership. It's not personal, it's strictly business. Finally, 3) the interest rate on your loan. The paperwork guy isn't trying to find you the best terms...he's trying to find you an approval. And the first one to pop up on his screen he'll take to move the process along. Going in well educated on the rates for your credit rating and length of loan will serve you well.

Agreed - that's how my father taught me to buy a car - keep all three pillars separate for as long as possible. If you live in a state that provides reduction of sales tax relative to trade-in, it may be hard to win on all three fronts. But you should get precisely what you want on two and call the third a draw. Coming in with a desired monthly payment as the decision driver leaves too many variables to fluctuate for the dealer to get there in a way that best suits them, not you.