From 5W-20 to 5W-30

[Wild one]

Apparently the real early 6.1's came with a billet cam,and they seem to have the lowest number of failures out of all the 3rd Gen Hemi's,also when Hoover was redesigning the blocks for VVT he spec'd a billet cam,so that leads me to believe he knew there'd be issues,but of course the bean counters abolished that idea,and wanted a cheaper cast iron core cam

 

[Dusty]

Then that should have fixed it, which means it was a total lie and nobody should believe what comes from any manu at anytime, EVER. However, I do believe this guy that also jives with forum results when using high performance oils. He just got the additive wrong, but the general idea right, his mistake is AW additives easily wipe off, EP additives plate.

View attachment 555339

View attachment 555340

If we can’t believe anything that comes from an automobile manufacturer, why should we believe anything that comes from an oil producer?

His analysis occurred in September of 2018, after the changes made to the lifter design. Yet the vintage of the camshaft is not established, so it could have been made prior to the lifter change. His metallurgical analysis indicates that “a constant and adequate volume of oil [was] supplied at the proper temperature range.” This statement runs counter to the belief that the issue at hand is caused by a design flaw of the lubrication system.

You’ll need to explain how he got the additive wrong. His only mention of additive is his general statement that, “The catastrophic failure of the lobe and roller lifter axle are most likely the result of using a type of oil that has insufficient ADDITIVES [emphasis added] for this kind of application.” If this document is being used to substantiate his credibility, then his comment about loss of stiction, which is the force necessary to initiate lifter roller rotation, supports his analysis that the oil, whatever was used, only lacked the proper additive package.

Furthermore, nowhere in his letter is any kind of oil, either by brand or weight, mentioned, other than to say, “It is quite obvious that the loads imposed on this camshaft exceeded the OEM recommended oil’s ability to reduce the friction being creating causing the failure.” However, he does not state how he determined that the recommended OEM oil was used.

Ultimately, the question which remains unanswered by all of the theories regarding oil selection and engine design is, why do lifter/camshaft failures not occur in the vast majority of these engines?

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 123054 miles.

 

[Burla]

It was a conversation we had where he told me he believed the answer was a high zinc oil, and from our testing zinc additives were zero help at killing tick. I should have asked him what year was the cam, that was my bad. You make excellent points no doubt. Fact is hemi tick and cam fails happen in every 4 and 5 gen hemi year, and in any forum page usually have 3 to 5 examples of hemi tick and cam fails mentioned. The "upgrades" in 2016 were no difference from the posts I read here.

It wouldnt be a far leap to believe HP oils had potential if you read the white paper in the syn thread, the papers that started a theory that led to some concrete numbers with widespread testing, at least as successful as actually changing lifters/cams that also are not 100% at killing tick.

Also we had fca develop a hemi specific oil that also goes in line with heavy EP use and the moly count of srt/pup 0w40. It comes down to how much the coefficient of friction is lessened with aw/EP additives, and the 'best" part of the work is those white paper tests are done with in tolerance engines, and the friction was lowered by those numbers. No testing (other then ours) was conducted with out of tolerance metals aka hemi tick. Obviously using an oil for a mechanical defect is not a popular notion. Furthermore, most of the WP testing stopped at 200ppm moly, so as far as white paper goes the "proof" ends there. But the absolute fact is of the 100's of rams tested, the chosen HP oil had an 80% success rate at killing tick, with nothing more then a simple out change not based on brand, but rather formula. Proven with a lesser similar additive having lesser similar results. None of which has anything to do with me, but rather reports from other members.

So people who have a ram and end up with hemi tick have few options, as we all know most of the time the manu wont address tick in the shop. They did change the oil to address it and changed lifters, yet hemi are still ticking. Even ram members with all of the upgrades in oil and lifters and even ones without MDS, all have had success with the HP formula tested in 5w30 and 5w40.

But as your excellent points show it surely wasn't perfect research or results. But since nobody else was doing it, that is all we got. And the guy clearly made assumptions in his document, and your points were excellent, but the one solid fact is the metal was high quality but yet failed. Since I haven't even seen any other metalurgies, we wouldn't know how many or which years have good metal. We certainly aren't going to get those from the manu, or likely any other source unless someone cared enough to do it and had the equipment. The point of all this was to find any action that "might" help, or less the other option is run 5w20 shelf oil and hope fort the best. The work has led to many members options to do whatever strategy as they can. That it is possible to make a difference in longevity, not guaranteed, but possible. I cant imagine being the poor guys who shelled out lifter/cam dollars only to still have tick, breaks my heart everytime I hear it no joke, working dollars are easier to spend then make these days. That hemi tick was a scourge on me when I bought my ram 15 years ago, still whisper quiet 15 years later. I am a wrong oil change away from it coming back.

 

[Burla]

That is the best point dusty, that most hemi's don't tick. However, in the ones that do, that fact is little comfort. And, sadly there is not one reason for the tick in the ones that do tick, even just the ones that only have lifter tick. The cam damage can very from tick to tick, so are roller/post damage, some are smooth worn down cam lobs. There is little downside to using elevated extreme pressure additives and base oils in HP oils, other then $, but we developed options that are less $ and have a good chance at beating it. Putting a little thought into what you dump in your engine isn't a new thing, for some reason it seams controversial if it is to combat hemi tick. However, one good thing about the Amazonians, those reviews on EP additives and how many ticks they kill hemi and other. There is very much info that suggests ram forum took the right direction and approach with what we did.

Last point, research the difference between base oil and EP additives as far as lowering friction.

 

[Dusty]

It was a conversation we had where he told me he believed the answer was a high zinc oil, and from our testing zinc additives were zero help at killing tick. I should have asked him what year was the cam, that was my bad. You make excellent points no doubt. Fact is hemi tick and cam fails happen in every 4 and 5 gen hemi year, and in any forum page usually have 3 to 5 examples of hemi tick and cam fails mentioned. The "upgrades" in 2016 were no difference from the posts I read here.

It wouldnt be a far leap to believe HP oils had potential if you read the white paper in the syn thread, the papers that started a theory that led to some concrete numbers with widespread testing, at least as successful as actually changing lifters/cams that also are not 100% at killing tick.

Also we had fca develop a hemi specific oil that also goes in line with heavy EP use and the moly count of srt/pup 0w40. It comes down to how much the coefficient of friction is lessened with aw/EP additives, and the 'best" part of the work is those white paper tests are done with in tolerance engines, and the friction was lowered by those numbers. No testing (other then ours) was conducted with out of tolerance metals aka hemi tick. Obviously using an oil for a mechanical defect is not a popular notion. Furthermore, most of the WP testing stopped at 200ppm moly, so as far as white paper goes the "proof" ends there. But the absolute fact is of the 100's of rams tested, the chosen HP oil had an 80% success rate at killing tick, with nothing more then a simple out change not based on brand, but rather formula. Proven with a lesser similar additive having lesser similar results. None of which has anything to do with me, but rather reports from other members.

So people who have a ram and end up with hemi tick have few options, as we all know most of the time the manu wont address tick in the shop. They did change the oil to address it and changed lifters, yet hemi are still ticking. Even ram members with all of the upgrades in oil and lifters and even ones without MDS, all have had success with the HP formula tested in 5w30 and 5w40.

But as your excellent points show it surely wasn't perfect research or results. But since nobody else was doing it, that is all we got. And the guy clearly made assumptions in his document, and your points were excellent, but the one solid fact is the metal was high quality but yet failed. Since I haven't even seen any other metalurgies, we wouldn't know how many or which years have good metal. We certainly aren't going to get those from the manu, or likely any other source unless someone cared enough to do it and had the equipment. The point of all this was to find any action that "might" help, or less the other option is run 5w20 shelf oil and hope fort the best. The work has led to many members options to do whatever strategy as they can. That it is possible to make a difference in longevity, not guaranteed, but possible. I cant imagine being the poor guys who shelled out lifter/cam dollars only to still have tick, breaks my heart everytime I hear it no joke, working dollars are easier to spend then make these days. That hemi tick was a scourge on me when I bought my ram 15 years ago, still whisper quiet 15 years later. I am a wrong oil change away from it coming back.

When talking to a CDJR tech. some time ago, he told me there are several things he found causing "hemi tick" other than lifter failure. This included out-of-spec push rod length and rocker arm axis. He stated that more often the cause was lifter bleed down over night which is common when the noise is at start up only and goes away for the rest of the day. Of course, depending on how much out-of-spec these parts may be, increasing oil viscosity could most certainly be a cure.

I've also been told by two techs. (one dealer, one independent) that the incidence rate of 5.7 lifter/camshaft problems have dissipated significantly in the past few years. In the internet environment you are going to hear about hemi tick or lifter failures disproportionally to those unmotivated to comment that they haven't experienced an issue, so the issue will always be amplified.

Of all the people I know or have asked, the only one I know of with the tick was my young son's 2006, and that vehicle crossed the 200K mark some time ago and still running.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 123054 miles.

 

[Wild one]

When talking to a CDJR tech. some time ago, he told me there are several things he found causing "hemi tick" other than lifter failure. This included out-of-spec push rod length and rocker arm axis. He stated that more often the cause was lifter bleed down over night which is common when the noise is at start up only and goes away for the rest of the day. Of course, depending on how much out-of-spec these parts may be, increasing oil viscosity could most certainly be a cure.

I've also been told by two techs. (one dealer, one independent) that the incidence rate of 5.7 lifter/camshaft problems have dissipated significantly in the past few years.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 123054 miles.

I think the thing they aren't addressing in the lower number of failures,is the amount people are driving since covid. According to a few insurance companies,people are driving alot less then they used to,and that will be a big contributing factor to the number of cam/lifter failures

 

[JHoward]

... all the reasons to use an oil with adequate amount of moly and zinc for protecting/preventing the "unexpected" lifter/cam failure... ?

What other option is guaranteed without an oil strategy ... ?

I'll continue to use the oil/filter combo that'll hopefully keep things at bay ... on the other hand, lol, I got my oil report back from Blackstone Labs, and it ain't good.

I'll post the oil report results over on the Blackstone Labs thread soon ...

 

[Wild one]

... all the reasons to use an oil with adequate amount of moly and zinc for protecting/preventing the "unexpected" lifter/cam failure... ?

What other option is guaranteed without an oil strategy ... ?

I'll continue to use the oil/filter combo that'll hopefully keep things at bay ... on the other hand, lol, I got my oil report back from Blackstone Labs, and it ain't good.

I'll post the oil report results over on the Blackstone Labs thread soon ...

I very seldom check that thread out J,can you give us the condensed version here by chance

 

[JHoward]

I very seldom check that thread out J,can you give us the condensed version here by chance

Sure, together my last two (@3000 mile oci's) oil reports from Blackstone Labs showed aluminum and iron were well above normal averages:

• aluminum @ 9 ppm, should be near ~1ppm
• iron @ 31ppm, should be near ~10 ppm.

On the recent oil report, submitted a couple of weeks ago:

• copper @ 108 ppm, should be @ ~30 ppm.

However, the aluminum and iron returned to what was normal for my HEMI ...

I don't know how how to make an long story short on this ordeal. Remember, my truck was wrecked this time last year ... I broadsided and eighteen wheeler that ran a stop sign ... I smacked into him @ 45 mph ... no airbags went off and no fluids "bled" out on the road, even drove the truck home and parked it in the garage ... drove it a few times as needed, probably shouldn't have.

My truck was out for six months, new frame was ordered and rebuilt on a new frame, lol, go figure ...

So, my truck was cosmetically repaired, it may have sustained internal engine damage that is now possibly showing up on my diligent oci's from Blackstone Labs?

 

[JHoward]

Sure, together my last two (@3000 mile oci's) oil reports from Blackstone Labs showed aluminum and iron were well above normal averages:

• aluminum @ 9 ppm, should be near ~1ppm
• iron @ 31ppm, should be near ~10 ppm.

On the recent oil report, submitted a couple of weeks ago:

• copper @ 108 ppm, should be @ ~30 ppm.

However, the aluminum and iron returned to what was normal for my HEMI ...

I don't know how how to make an long story short on this ordeal. Remember, my truck was wrecked this time last year ... I broadsided and eighteen wheeler that ran a stop sign ... I smacked into him @ 45 mph ... no airbags went off and no fluids "bled" out on the road, even drove the truck home and parked it in the garage ... drove it a few times as needed, probably shouldn't have.

My truck was out for six months, new frame was ordered and rebuilt on a new frame, lol, go figure ...

So, my truck was cosmetically repaired, it may have sustained internal engine damage that is now possibly showing up on my diligent oci's from Blackstone Labs?

I've seen pics here in the RAMforum of folks trucks that have been totaled with far less damage than mine ... my truck should have been totaled ... I've no control of the matter because my insurance co. said: "Mr. J, were not going to total your truck, it's been well maintained and has low mileage!" ...

Ever heard of CarFax?

 

[JHoward]

I've seen pics here in the RAMforum of folks trucks that have been totaled with far less damage than mine ... my truck should have been totaled ... I've no control of the matter because my insurance co. said: "Mr. J, were not going to total your truck, it's been well maintained and has low mileage!" ...

Ever heard of CarFax?

My apologies for hijacking the OP's post.

 

[Burla]

My apologies for hijacking the OP's post.

all related, but in summation whatever the cause of tick, no reason to not move from visc 9 to visc 12, as in 5w20 to 5w30. Anyone saying stick to 5w20 forever misses the point that tolerances widen and tolerances do not care about CAFE one lil bit, if I happen to have convinced you in HP oil as well, do some research. There is a when not to use redline thread, no reason to spend hard dollars on redline if the engine isn't ticking, like dusty points out most hemi's dont. Other considerations should include the new Valvoline restore on aging engines. see valvolines YouTube on synthetic versus conventional 500k miles.

 

[Burla]

When talking to a CDJR tech. some time ago, he told me there are several things he found causing "hemi tick" other than lifter failure. This included out-of-spec push rod length and rocker arm axis. He stated that more often the cause was lifter bleed down over night which is common when the noise is at start up only and goes away for the rest of the day. Of course, depending on how much out-of-spec these parts may be, increasing oil viscosity could most certainly be a cure.

I've also been told by two techs. (one dealer, one independent) that the incidence rate of 5.7 lifter/camshaft problems have dissipated significantly in the past few years. In the internet environment you are going to hear about hemi tick or lifter failures disproportionally to those unmotivated to comment that they haven't experienced an issue, so the issue will always be amplified.

Of all the people I know or have asked, the only one I know of with the tick was my young son's 2006, and that vehicle crossed the 200K mark some time ago and still running.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 123054 miles.

how would they explain the amount of time it takes for rams to start ticking with wrong length rods?

last item on machine shop, I don't know what he knew or what he omitted in his statement.

 

[Burla]

last last note on machine shop, he did say zinc because of how it protects flat tappet engines. But as it turns out hemi out of tolerance engines create more pressures then zinc can handle. Thus white paper on moly shows us the potential. There is a reason why most oils use aw/EP additives in the form of zinc zddp and moly modtc.

 

[Wild one]

I've seen pics here in the RAMforum of folks trucks that have been totaled with far less damage than mine ... my truck should have been totaled ... I've no control of the matter because my insurance co. said: "Mr. J, were not going to total your truck, it's been well maintained and has low mileage!" ...

Ever heard of CarFax?

Wouldn't be the first time an engines sustained internal damage from an accident,especially if there was a significant and rapid reduction in speed. I've seen engines from accidents that didn't seem all that bad,have bent connecting rods etc. Depends on how the accident forces impact parts of the engine that aren't engineered for sideways loads.Have you approached your insurance company with the results from your oil analysis.

 

[Dusty]

how would they explain the amount of time it takes for rams to start ticking with wrong length rods?

last item on machine shop, I don't know what he knew or what he omitted in his statement.

Since this conversation was sometime ago I'm not sure, but he may have been talking about an engine that had a steady tick. The number of those types of incidences were in the minority compared to lifter issues, I'm sure.
Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 123054 miles.

 

[crackerjack1957]

Always preferred adjustable valve lash back in the day.

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sdparts.com

 

[GTyankee]

March 2021
from a Bob is the Oil guy post

Exxonmobil Tech Line gave me a very detailed response on this matter last month, but I wasn't sure if it was appropriate to post the full e-mail on here, so I did not.
In summary, Mobil has been running the FCA required testing for many months now and was expecting to receive formal FCA approval around Q2 of this year. It looks like this happened sooner than expected.

I am curious if every brand claiming MS-6395 compliance is actually seeking formal FCA approval. The language used is very ambiguous and I strongly suspect that some brands (especially house brands) are playing the "meets or exceeds" game with this spec.
.....................................................................

Each year or two, since some time before 2009.
Chrysler, or later FCA, etc.

Lets out a Lubrications Contract

This is done at a Testing Lab.
Each Company that wants to be considered, shows up after meeting all requirements
They are given all the Engine Specs before hand.

They show up with their OWN lubricants & engineers.
The Main Test is to use their lubricants in a set number of Engines, for X amount of Running Hours & under certain procedures.

From what i understand, the only thing that they don't care for, but do not Protest, is that they have to pay for the Chrysler/FCA/ Stellantis Engineers too, including their Per Diem.


Several of the Oil Brands, have removed their Oil Brands from being considered.

They figure that having their Oil on the floor of the dealership is a Great thing,
But having their Oil & advertisements all over every Auto Parts store is equal to, if not better than going through the Official Testing.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I can't name one of my neighbors, that really gives a damn about what Oil is sold at the dealership.

But, anyone can walk into a major Walmart Store & see that Mobile One is almost always out of Stock.
The same as with DEF, SuperTech brand

 

[Dusty]

I am curious if every brand claiming MS-6395 compliance is actually seeking formal FCA approval. The language used is very ambiguous and I strongly suspect that some brands (especially house brands) are playing the "meets or exceeds" game with this spec.

I would bet that if that were the case, FCA would file suit, or at least file a complaint with API. GM did some years ago and won.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 123119 miles.

 

[DILLIGAF]

I hope your not planning on running 5W-30 from now on. The reason your oil pressure is higher is because your oil pump is working harder to push the heavier oil.

Someone drank the stealersh!t cool-aid. Your making your fellow Canadians look bad my guy. Might want to delete that comment...