Is Idling Really an Issue for Gas Engines?

[HotrodR]

More and more folks look at engine hours not mileage when you sell or trade. Various opinions on how hours translate to miles when converting. I've seen from 30- 60 miles for each hour of idle.

Last diesel I had the dealer crawled under to see if a pto was ever used. The kiss of death for engine idle hours. He looked at engine hours and miles, to estimate idle hours. All sorts of info hidden on vehicle computers theses days .

 

[JerryETX]

U.S. Govt. EPA-mandated corporate average fleet fuel economy standards. Auto makers are putting on ridiculous systems to shave every tenth of a percentage point off of fuel consumption they can.

Also ultra-thin engine oils, thermostats in transmission oil lines, and other crazy and expensive gizmos for the holy grail of EPA C.A.F.E. requirements.

Has to be something to do with the government.

 

[Phillyrube]

Even though I’m not an engineer I would think carbon buildup should be less in Hotter climates as the engine will run hotter. And diesel only runs hotter under load. Diesels that excessively idle with the DPF and other emissions tend to have worse carbon buildups that will choke the engine because they can’t get hot enough to burn the carbon off. Diesel engines that are worked tend to live a cleaner life

Leads to a question. Stationary power plants go from zero to full speed, then get a load on them. Shutting down. Reduce the load, run at no load, then they shut down. Shouldn't they reduce to idle for a bit? I know road diesels should be idled down but that's to make sure the turbo stops.

 

[Mittens]

Leads to a question. Stationary power plants go from zero to full speed, then get a load on them. Shutting down. Reduce the load, run at no load, then they shut down. Shouldn't they reduce to idle for a bit? I know road diesels should be idled down but that's to make sure the turbo stops.

The old, mechanical 12v diesels need EGT sensors if you're going to heavy haul. After a long haul, you want to wait till EGTs get below 1400 or something before shutting off. Not sure if that's solely for the turbo of if anything else benefits. I like to idle anything for a bit after heavy exercise so temps can even out. It probably hasn't been an issue for many years now, but there used to be worries about uneven cooldown when the coolant stops flowing.

 

[ramffml]

For the hemi, I doubt idling has any good effect. When I'm parked in the drive through of the local coffee shop behind the lovely Karen who ordered breakfast for the entire suburban full of bouncing kids ... I digress. When I'm parked behind such a person, I find my engine temps match the steady upward progress of my forehead temp. Idling only causes an increase in temperature, my truck is always cooler while driving.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Has to be something to do with the government.

Yes - corrupt corporations and government.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Leads to a question. Stationary power plants go from zero to full speed, then get a load on them. Shutting down. Reduce the load, run at no load, then they shut down. Shouldn't they reduce to idle for a bit? I know road diesels should be idled down but that's to make sure the turbo stops.

Right up my alley - we designed diesel electric generator sets, me for 22 years.

Not all stationary generator sets go to full speed - the emergency standby generators do, the prime power generators do not.

Emergency says it all - those that power life & safety applications (hospitals, airports, lighting and fire water pumps, etc.) must start and produce usable voltage within 10 seconds of start command signal. This is required by NFPA110, National Electric Code.

This is hard on the engine and the generator, but necessary. Shutdown does have a cool down cycle - they are not shut down hot. They run at rated speed and no load for 2-5 minutes to cool the turbo bearings and get heat out of the block. Reducing to low idle does not remove the heat fast enough.

 

[Dodge 1500 4X4]

. I digress. When I'm parked behind such a person, I find my engine temps match the steady upward progress of my forehead temp. Idling only causes an increase in temperature, my truck is always cooler while driving

In such cases I will shut down the engine at such times of downright rude people in a grocery getter!!! yes forehead and blood pressure levels.

 

[ColesRAM]

Well, with the concerns about excess idle time, then eTorque engines should be a “good” thing …....?

 

[Phillyrube]

Right up my alley - we designed diesel electric generator sets, me for 22 years.

Not all stationary generator sets go to full speed - the emergency standby generators do, the prime power generators do not.

Emergency says it all - those that power life & safety applications (hospitals, airports, lighting and fire water pumps, etc.) must start and produce usable voltage within 10 seconds of start command signal. This is required by NFPA110, National Electric Code.

This is hard on the engine and the generator, but necessary. Shutdown does have a cool down cycle - they are not shut down hot. They run at rated speed and no load for 2-5 minutes to cool the turbo bearings and get heat out of the block. Reducing to low idle does not remove the heat fast enough.

I repaired aircraft ground power generators in the Navy. Biggest thing we tried to hammer into airplane fixers was to idle the unit for a few minutes before shutdown. Of course, they are always in a hurry so we gotta fix them a lot. Detroit Diesels, easy to fix.

Now, gas turbine engines? We replaced a lot before their time since these guys would use the bleed air or the generator, finish the task and just shutdown the turbine. Bad, bad, bad. bad. bad!!

NASWOGS!!

 

[crazykid1994]

Right up my alley - we designed diesel electric generator sets, me for 22 years.

Not all stationary generator sets go to full speed - the emergency standby generators do, the prime power generators do not.

Emergency says it all - those that power life & safety applications (hospitals, airports, lighting and fire water pumps, etc.) must start and produce usable voltage within 10 seconds of start command signal. This is required by NFPA110, National Electric Code.

This is hard on the engine and the generator, but necessary. Shutdown does have a cool down cycle - they are not shut down hot. They run at rated speed and no load for 2-5 minutes to cool the turbo bearings and get heat out of the block. Reducing to low idle does not remove the heat fast enough.

Most of those run block heaters that maintain a minimum of 100°f to reduce cold starting fatigue. Well the bigger ones do. Electrician whose installed and serviced said generators.

 

[Zoe Saldana]

Because of the use-case for my truck I spend a lot of time in it, idling. I've seen mention that it's hard on the truck but have always done it as I need climate control and don't want to run down my batteries. Now all that said my 2020 Ram Rebel is the newest car I've ever owned and I don't know what's changed (if anything)

Does anybody else idle a lot? Like about 50% of the time it's being used

Open to opinions too - probably not a black and white question and I expect it's mostly anecdotal.

1 hour of idling = 30 miles of driving

Also, antidotal reports say it could be one of the reasons for lifter failure/hemi tick.

 

[KCActual]

Personally, I have 2 Gen 4 Hemi's an 11 and a 14,which supposedly have the cam lifter issue. one with 166k and the other with 250k. No tick original motors NO MDS. They Idle frequently. But I don't use millage as an indicator for changing oil. Ever wonder why engines have hour meters? Viscosity is very important to Hemi's, as is the type of oil used. Varying oil weight in a Hemi not recommended.

 

[farout75]

So it's just becoming Winter here In the great white North And this is my 1st Winter with my 2022 powerwagon.

About 80% of my mileage is highway miles. getting to trips camping in wilderness etc.

Yet I have high idle hours. Not quite sure how this happened Completely, Yet I recently was I recently was sitting in the truck warming it up as it was 20 below 0. And did a search about the question above on Google.

It seems that the common Agreement is for every idle Hour, = 30 miles Of driving.

I found multiple videos those of Gasser's and diesels with very high idle hours being torn a part for rebuild And it was something else.

Also so for every the idle hour is = 30 miles a driving And every hour is the equivalent of 60 miles of driving.

When I did the math of total hours on my engine times 60 I was low, quite low. because of all the highway driving.

That is a very good thing for this big Gasser, Yes I have high of high idle hours so it's kind of a mixed bag.

I treat the engine as as if it was extreme duty and change the oil every 5000 km With an absolute maximum of 8000 km of highway driving that is. That equals 3000 miles and 5000 miles. I use amzoil only since new on this truck.

And I'm about to send the current oil well into amzoil for oil analysis as a baseline.

I just did it with a car I own And I had results within a week.

Anyway back to the topic, I'm going to be very curious to see what the oil analysis shows with the high idle time, If anything different.⁶⁶99ù9

Here are my numbers on the 6.4 l hemi

292 total engine hours

91 idle

201 Drive

With 15700 km or 10000 miles.

If you do the math for every Engine hours for 60 miles, it is 17500 miles.
It's going to be very interesting this Winter with Remote start when it's 40 below.
Going to try to keep the idle Hours down consciously.

On my17 RAM with the 5.7 I have 662 idle hours, 2759 run hours and 3421 total hours, (Knock on wood) I have have developed no tick or cam issues. I have 116,200 miles on it. If what you say is accurate if 1 hour equals 30 miles idle that that makes 19,860 mikes. Wow I never thought it would be that much! Good thing I've had no issues. Also you have 97,555 miles.

 

[Ratman6161]

U.S. Govt. EPA-mandated corporate average fleet fuel economy standards. Auto makers are putting on ridiculous systems to shave every tenth of a percentage point off of fuel consumption they can.

Also ultra-thin engine oils, thermostats in transmission oil lines, and other crazy and expensive gizmos for the holy grail of EPA C.A.F.E. requirements.

2500's and up don't have EPA ratings and don't count in CAFE. That's why there is no EPA rating on the sticker.

That may change in 2030: https://www.nhtsa.gov/laws-regulations/corporate-average-fuel-economy

 

[2020PW]

Don’t you think that if oil pressure was the root cause and raising the idle by 50 is the answer, ram would issue a TSB or recall?? It’s a huge conspiracy!!!! LMAO

OP: you’re over thinking it. Enjoy and idle but your oils change interval is now also based on engine hours. Check the owners manual.

 

[Sherman Bird]

I'm not looking to get into an argument with @Rlaf75, or anyone else, and I don't disagree with him about idling in general. I just haven't seen any real proof that idling is what causes the cam/lifter issue on Hemi engines. There are also theories that MDS is the cause, or the design of how the cam gets insufficient lubrication, especially at lower rpm's. But like the idling theory, I haven't seen any real proof that any of those have been definitively shown to be the cause.

Fire trucks cause fires! Haven't you noticed that there is always a fire truck at a fire?!
There is no real proof what causes these maladies of modern cars. There is correlation, anecdotal, and suspected causation.
Is it the oil?
Is it the type/brand of filter?
Temperature?
Extended idle periods?
Perhaps design flaw?

I've owned too many trucks/ cars which have had run of the mill oil and filters in them for north of 100,000 miles and extended idle periods. Granted they were all but one Chrysler vehicles. My 1989 D-150 had many many long idle periods without any problems, as have several Fords and Chevys... and my old trusty Sequoia (Currently has 300K on the odometer), and it's hot oil pressure drops to about 15 PSI and has for a very long time.

Human nature is to seek the magic bullet which gives a blanket cure for all ills.

I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of Rams with the Hemi have gone 200K and beyond with no problem? My neighbors constitute ownership of 5 Rams with high mileage... one has the Cummins, so that's not germane here.
Not ONE of the gassers has had Hemi tick problems. That's only 4. Should I use that anecdotal basis to steer me to own one? Perhaps as a tidbit in the grand scheme.

Professionally, I believe that mass production has more to do with it than most other factors, but who knows? It's a crap shoot.

 

[HEMIMANN]

A Chrysler tech member stated his dealership had 5-10% of all Hemis sold by the dealership with lifter and cam failures.
That is not a normal failure rate. In this era of 6 sigma design criteria, 1 in a million failure rate is the target . It was at Cummins.

There is clear member evidence that lubrication is linked to lifter roller seizures. Anything that helps lubricate the roller helps. That includes higher oil flow rates. Not anecdotes about other engines.
This is a Ram Forum - not a old GM Forum.

 

[mikeru]

A Chrysler tech member stated his dealership had 5-10% of all Hemis sold by the dealership with lifter and cam failures.
That is not a normal failure rate. In this era of 6 sigma design criteria, 1 in a million failure rate is the target . It was at Cummins.

There is clear member evidence that lubrication is linked to lifter roller seizures. Anything that helps lubricate the roller helps. That includes higher oil flow rates. Not anecdotes about other engines.
This is a Ram Forum - not a old GM Forum.

I have no idea which member you're talking about, and I'm not saying he's being disingenuous. But there's a huge difference between 5 and 10 percent, even at a single dealership. People can make all the claims they want, and they may even believe those claims. But without actual data I'd take that with a grain of salt.

There are real lifter/cam failures on these engines, and they appear to be happening a higher rate than what would be considered acceptable. But I have yet to see actual numbers on what that failure rate really is, and Ram doesn't appear to be forthcoming with those numbers. If someone has them I'd be very interested in seeing the real numbers.

 

[JHoward]

^^ This^^

And not from just one Chrysler service tech member stating 5-10% failure of all HEMI'S sold by that dealership where he worked.

I'd like to see the actual fail rate numbers but that's going to be next to impossible as I firmly believe that each and every HEMI engine from 2009 to present isn't going to be and can't accounted for.