Lifter failure!

[LuFc92]

The engineers did their job, so did the materials engineers. The problem was the accounting department that decided to cut costs on the cam and lifters. Well, they didn't specifically "cheapened" the cam and lifters, it was more something along the lines of squeezing their suppliers to manufacture them for less money. I believe that in an effort to save money, on the supplier's part, there are certain quality control aspects that are being ignored. This means that even parts that aren't supposed to make the cut are finding their way into Hemis, which isn't good. In an effort to avoid issues, and as extra insurance, I am now running Red Line 5W-30. So far, I like it.

@LuFc92 - did you run your truck for a while without disabling MDS? Did that change anything? For example, I got noise on the passenger side that's either the catalytic converter or something loose in the exhaust system. I have that noise hot and cold, it doesn't matter. The only other thing I can recommend is to run a Rolay Purple 20-820 oil filter, or AMSOIL EAO11 (they are the same). Oh, and ignore the trolls. I saw the message earlier left by someone who told you not to use tow-haul mode and some other stuff. Once in a while, we get trolls around here. I even caused one out to the point that I got a two-week "vacation" because it's a rule violation to do so. From now on, I just hit the "ignore" button and move on.

Yes admittedly at first i did not know too much about the issues with the Hemi and the lifter problems. So i would just run the truck with the MDS enabled. It wasn't until i was working on a job site and another RAM would park next to me that i first heard the tapping on his truck. He introduced me and i spent the rest of the day at work googling Hemi lifter failure and to be fair i was blown away by how many threads, posts, articles and videos there are out there from a simple search. From that point on i would disable MDS then obviously that led me to Redline oil etc.

Yes my noise is both hot and cold as well i just tend to notice it more when i first start the truck up.

I dropped off what reciepts and information i had today at the dealership so we shall see what comes of it

 

[LuFc92]

Update: Dropped off receipts late afternoon Tuesday, then got a call today at around 5pm that i missed as i was getting ready to head to work saying my truck is ready to be picked up. So either the warranty covered it or i will be getting a bill when i get there haha.
Does that time frame sound about right? One day? Im unsure of the labour time for this kind of work?
I guess it depends on whether they did a full replacement or not but i won't know until i actually pick it up

 

[KenR 955]

FWIW, I bought my 98.5 Dodge Ram 2500 new back in early 1999. Every single thing I ever did, I wrote down in the owners manual, where the maintenance part is. I didn't keep the receipts themselves, (like buying oil and filter), but when I wrote it down, I would put: O&F, done by me, mileage at that time, type of oil and type of filter. 354K later, I still do it.
I am doing the same thing with my 2014 1500 Big Horn. I'm out of warranty, (I bought it with 89K now it has 105K), but my point is, would my record keeping be enough if I WAS under warranty and had these lifter issues spoken about in this thread?

 

[Burla]

No misfire code yet at all still? And they replaced it? Ask for the old cam if that is the case, or old lifters if they just did that. Find out if it is a needle bearing. If it is a needle bearing and they didn't do the cam, chances are it is severely pitted. As for old pieces, even if it is just for a picture.

 

[LuFc92]

 

[LuFc92]

No misfire code yet at all still? And they replaced it? Ask for the old cam if that is the case, or old lifters if they just did that. Find out if it is a needle bearing. If it is a needle bearing and they didn't do the cam, chances are it is severely pitted. As for old pieces, even if it is just for a picture.

I already picked it up before i seen this! I should have asked for the old parts.

So get this they kept all my receipts "in case chrysler canada asks for them" they never even had to show them

 

[LuFc92]

FWIW, I bought my 98.5 Dodge Ram 2500 new back in early 1999. Every single thing I ever did, I wrote down in the owners manual, where the maintenance part is. I didn't keep the receipts themselves, (like buying oil and filter), but when I wrote it down, I would put: O&F, done by me, mileage at that time, type of oil and type of filter. 354K later, I still do it.
I am doing the same thing with my 2014 1500 Big Horn. I'm out of warranty, (I bought it with 89K now it has 105K), but my point is, would my record keeping be enough if I WAS under warranty and had these lifter issues spoken about in this thread?

I didn't keep reciepts so i ended up having to go through 4 years worth of banking transactions and highlight everytime i bought oil and filters. I then typed it all up stating what oil i had purchased and from what location and the cost.
Because the majority of my oil was PUP 5w-20, it was almost always the same numbers and cost on the transactions so i printed out the transactions aswell.
Obviously the lesson learned is keep all your reciepts....

 

[Burla]

View attachment 469001View attachment 469002

Great news man, I'm not sure lubrication can save a lifter, but it would be nice to see the part, sounds like maybe needle bearing. Good news no cam fail and no mis fires, consider this a honey mooners bruise and move on with your great truck. I wonder how the truck was running with no mis fire codes with no needle bearing. I wonder how they call that a fail. No real answer here, but new lifters and good to go.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Maybe new and improved lifters to boot? Supposedly FCA changed lifter design and vendors beginning with 2017 model year to reduce or eliminate failures.

 

[Burla]

If a needle bearing fails, in a sense you now have a flat tappet cam, or a similar version of it. The roller doesn't roll, or even sometimes is missing, in that case the posts hit the cam, and it still runs. What fails is if the lob is worn.

Flat tappet looks like this, cams still work with this design, they just need heavy additive oil. Your oil choice likely served you well with this lifter failure. Flat tappet oil is just heavy zinc, you had heavy zinc, saturated base oils, plus heavy ep additives. Depending on how long this was going on, this oil only helped your cam.

 

[Burla]

I'd be worried if they didnt replace them all, 3 lifters had an issue with the "pin". Did they replace them all? I never heard of 3 lifters on both heads at once. Was this truck ever in extreme cold, like -40f?

 

[Burla]

I already picked it up before i seen this! I should have asked for the old parts.

So get this they kept all my receipts "in case chrysler canada asks for them" they never even had to show them

So you have 3 lifters down on two sides of the engine. This sounds bad to me, I'd develop some strategies to protect those lifters. Perhaps 0w20 heavy additive oil, but this may be something you will need a block heater and/or oil sump heater. First time I have heard of 3 lifters down on both sides, meaning something bigger then a out of tolerance issue or quality control issue. I would make sure I wasn't starting this thing in the extreme cold.

Calling @U&A and @Hemi395 didn't you guys install block heaters and such? I forget, did you guys do a DIY thread on this?

 

[LuFc92]

So you have 3 lifters down on two sides of the engine. This sounds bad to me, I'd develop some strategies to protect those lifters. Perhaps 0w20 heavy additive oil, but this may be something you will need a block heater and/or oil sump heater. First time I have heard of 3 lifters down on both sides, meaning something bigger then a out of tolerance issue or quality control issue. I would make sure I wasn't starting this thing in the extreme cold.

Calling @U&A and @Hemi395 didn't you guys install block heaters and such? I forget, did you guys do a DIY thread on this?

Im going back to redline, probably 0w30 for the winter here.
Im in no way a mechanic, i can do basic maintenance but you telling me it sounds bad doesn't make me feel good?

Truck has a block heater and gets plugged in through winter when i can, there has been occasions where ive been out on site somewhere with no plug in available and the truck has sat all day in -40, sometimes upto -50 with windchill

 

[Burla]

Yeah, honestly that is what I thought. Do you tow with your truck? Like in winter over 7k pounds?

Viscosity is resistance to flow, but it can cause resistance to moving metal. If you have oil that is thick and even oil in the lifter bore that is thick, and the lifter doesn't lift quickly, something has to give. Cam lobs or needle bearings, pretty much that would be it. The very fact you had three out, I have no doubt this is a temperature thing with what you just verified.

 

[LuFc92]

Yeah, honestly that is what I thought. Do you tow with your truck? Like in winter over 7k pounds?

Nope zero towing.....ever actually. I planned on towing when i bought it then plans changed and I've never needed to

 

[LuFc92]

Parts replaced

 

[Burla]

Well, consider this, your oil pump is similar to a water wheel, it takes a certain amount of oil and when it spins it tosses that oil into your lines. So, how much oil and how fast it moves from viscosity 9 and viscosity 12 is small. Meaning, the benefit from slight thicker oil that is equalized by the mechanical movement of the oil is negligible, especially considering how thick the different oils are at start up. The psi difference between the 2 weights at operating temps is minimal, like under 5% for sure, more like 2-3%. However, 5w30 to 0w20 thickness at -40 is huge, maybe 1,000 viscosity no kidding. So in this case, I would opt for 0w20, way less Resistance of flow, or possible resistance of moving metal.

Mind you this chart starts at 0c which of course is 32f. So you see what happens in the cold, the graph gap between oil weights drastically widens. So at 32f you see the difference between 0w20 and 5w30, let's guess that number at 100 viscosity 5w30 is that thicker. Look at 0w30 temps at -20c, bottom chart. Viscosity 6000? That's why I'm saying 0w20 is only part of the strategy, I'd find a way not to start that truck at -40 without heating the oil/engine. Maybe it is carrying a generator, maybe some other type of thing. but, the correct oil is going to be 0w20, in this case I wouldn't be afraid of that at all, quite the opposite. The additives is what will protect that cam, just like in flat tappets additives help cams. So using redline 0w20 or another heavy additive oil, would be the way to go. Good luck with it, Burla.

 

[LuFc92]

So just to confirm after reading your last reply, i should go with Redline 0w20 rather than the Redline 0w30?

What do you think the worst case scenario im looking at?

 

[Burla]

So just to confirm after reading your last reply, i should go with Redline 0w20 rather than the Redline 0w30?

What do you think the worst case scenario im looking at?

That is what I'd do. I would also carry a oil sump magnetic heater on 12v, and always have a 12v battery charged behind the seat. Find out how long that blanket works on a charge, and figure it out. You may need a plug to adapter thingy, because most of those are plugs. I'm sure they have to have 12v adapter, but I dunno.

You know I killed my hemi tick with 5w20 redline, which is almost the same weight as other 5w20's it was knocking on, so it wasn't viscosity that helped my engine, it was the additive package. The moly and base oils is what protects cams, just like in flat tappets, they say boost zinc with flat tappets, that is your protection.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Completely concur with the the low temperature viscosity conclusions, as the oils get colder and approach their pumpability limits.

But keep in mind the small differences in viscosity at the operation temperature of 100C (212F) and higher at localized hot spots (cylinder walls for example) can make the difference between a high wear engine and a low wear engine, and this seems important for Hemi engines, since they are poorly lubricated in the first place.

In fact, the 3.0L "Ecodiesel" engine from Europe was spinning bearings without a 40 weight oil. A few cSt points at operating temp. and load can and does determine whether we get expected service life or not.