2015 ram 1500 Lifter failure… dreaded

[Barr2255]

The dealer quote was:
Replacement Head: $2,000
Replacement Exhaust Manifolds: $650
Replacement cam and lifters $2500
Labor: $4,800
And some other junk that totaled up to $11,200

The oil pan surface cleaned up easy - it looks great. Going to clean the deck surface and timing chain areas tomorrow. I have some roloc disks coming and will use the white, mild one.

Thanks

You should start your own thread about your rebuild! It will get a lot of comments.

 

[cbt1976]

The dealer quote was:
Replacement Head: $2,000
Replacement Exhaust Manifolds: $650
Replacement cam and lifters $2500
Labor: $4,800
And some other junk that totaled up to $11,200

The oil pan surface cleaned up easy - it looks great. Going to clean the deck surface and timing chain areas tomorrow. I have some roloc disks coming and will use the white, mild one.

Thanks

Sounds about right.

 

[Barr2255]

I got a question for ya’ll.
If cylinder 1 and 6 are at top dead center, the came phaser timing mark is at 12 o’clock and the crankshaft sprocket is at 6 o’clock does it matter at all how the timing chain is put on?

In my opinion theoretically it doesn’t because the cam and crank and pistons are in correct orientation. The chain marks are irrelevant at that point right?

Does it matter if the cylinder is at top dead center during combustion or exhaust cycle?

If I’m wrong please explain why.

 

[Yardbird]

See if this reference helps any at all.

https://www.ramforumz.com/threads/2009-vvt-hemi-camshaft-crankshaft-timing-tips.285328/

 

[DILLIGAF]

4k in labor for a 2 day job. And they will put the same junk back in. Even with all my nerve damage I did mine in 2.5 days in a driveway FFS ....

Stealersh!ts

 

[Barr2255]

See if this reference helps any at all.

https://www.ramforumz.com/threads/2009-vvt-hemi-camshaft-crankshaft-timing-tips.285328/

Thanks for the response, it’s a good write up. It really doesn’t answer my question. I’m not concerned rather or not I’m in the correct timing position. I was just curious if it really matter how the chain is put on if cam and crank are indexed properly at TDC. Just an intrusive thought.

 

[Yardbird]

Thanks for the response, it’s a good write up. It really doesn’t answer my question. I’m not concerned rather or not I’m in the correct timing position. I was just curious if it really matter how the chain is put on if cam and crank are indexed properly at TDC. Just an intrusive thought.

If all timing marks are in the proper orientation, it shouldn't matter where the marks line up.

All links are equal length/spaced, so position of marks will make no difference as long as everything else is correctly positioned.

 

[ramffml]

Well, think of the next guy that's in there wondering how the chain slipped ... ?

 

[Barr2255]

Well, think of the next guy that's in there wondering how the chain slipped ... ?

Hahah that thought did cross my mind.

 

[Barr2255]

Cam and other parts finally arrive tomorrow. I got the block surface cleaned today. What a chore that is with the block still being in the truck. Took about 4 hour of scrubbing with an sos pad, acetone and razor blade. The blade didn’t really do much for me honestly, it took a bit off but to get it to a nice shiny finish red scotchbrite pad and WD-40 won the battle.

I’ll post some pics tomorrow.

 

[Barr2255]

Well parts finally made it today. Dropped the heads off at the machine shop and the guy was extremely knowledgeable, turns out he knew my dad back in the day building sprint car motors. Anyways he takes one look at the heads and imediately noticed that between 2 of the cylinders there had been a head gasket leak. He explained what to look for and sure enough you could tell the gasket had failed. It was pretty minor and he said the fact it was only between two cylinders was probably why I didn’t notice. Kind of Intresting. This truck has never been overheated or anything super out of the norm. Surely with the leak those two cylinders were down on compression or would of failed a leak down test. Glad I took the heads in after all to be surfaced. They should be done early next week so when I get them I will put everything back together, I thought about putting the can in and getting the timing cover on this weekend but it’s deer season

 

[Hellcatsrock]

Dropping the pan in my truck is pretty difficult according to the forum since I have a 4x4. But once I have the front timing cover off I will have a bit of access to the front of the pan so I will stick my wand magnet in there and fish around. Also I’ll pour a bunch of fresh oil to try an flush it as best as possible. Not sure if I want to tackle oil pump but will decide once I’m in there, I can use my bore scope to look at pick up screen to ensure it’s clean of debris.
I think it’s also worth noting in my case my motor only tapped for about 15 miles before the ticking turned from a very light tapping to a loud tapping and chirp.
I plan on replacing water pump as well. They are cheap and I much as I like wrenching not something I want to have fail 10k miles from now. I plan on pulling the front timing cover tomorrow and will post pics. Placing order tonight for oem cam and lifters.

Does anyone have any input on felpro headgaskets? I’ve always been happy with felpro but not sure about their head gaskets also thinking about getting their head bolts as well. I know ARP is the top of the line head bolts but for stock applications is the price point really nessacary?

Do yourself a favor and replace the oil pump with a hellcat pump or high volume (not high pressure) melling unit that is made for these 5.7 motors. The damage is coming from low oil flow while idling.

 

[Hellcatsrock]

Dang guys, you love talking about oil lol.

I didn’t get around to pulling the timing cover off today but I did get everything ordered today. Wen’t with Felpro gaskets pretty much all the way around. ARP head bolts that are not TTY, pricy little things. Mopar OEM can and lifters. The cam was $395 from mopar the lifters I got off EBay for $500. Made sure they were actually Mopar brand part numbers ending in 86AD and 85AD. I went ahead and bought all new springs and push rods, they are cheap and I’ve already had to replace a couple springs so if I was gambling man I would say I’m over due for another one to break.

I talked to a local machine shop, they are going to jet wash the heads, surface them and vacuum test to ensure valves and seats are good. $300 to do the pair, $40 for the pair of them to take off the old springs install the new ones and valve seals. Pretty stoked about that because it’s a bit of a tedious task especially changing 16 springs. They are also table sanding the other exhaust manifold that I hadn’t taken off prior to this tear down but they are doing that for free.

Just need to get the timing cover off and which shouldn’t take me more than a half hour and clean the block mating surface. Everything should be here by the end of next week and the machine shop said they would turn the heads over the same day.

Instead of the oil topic let’s hear your guys thoughts on brands, or things that should be done while the motors apart that are easier to replace, like the MDS solenoids, replace now or when they take a crap? They are pretty darn pricy!

Change your oil pump to a hellcat unit or the high volume Melling unit. Call Melling and they will know exactly what pump you are talking about. At warmed up temperatures and idling the factory pump does not put enough volume through, leading to these failures per many engine builders. I was gonna do mine but I got tired of all the BS and traded it in this week on a laramie with the straight 6. It felt great driving it, and an 8 year extended warranty can be had for around $2000.

 

[Hellcatsrock]

As far as lubrication galleys go I disagree (I assume you mean the galleys in the head?) the jackets in the block are plenty adequate. With that said sure the head galleys could be hogged out and it wouldn’t hurt anything but again real world application… The lifters on my truck were coated with adequate oil, sure the front lifters were less than the rears upon tear down but like you and many others have mentioned the cam in this motor relies on crank splash the most. Me personally I think the cam was positioned to high in the block and with the natural position the motor leans towards the cab causing the back lifters to be completely saturated and those front lifters to be lightly coated. But it’s an internal battle with my own judgment as an engineer because the majority of hemi motors don’t have these failures. This makes me believe the cam itself is possibly to blame. Especially after seeing a couple other lifters in my motor with weird scoring marks. I think the cam itself is wearing and causing lifter failure, MDS lifters may seem prominent due to “pumping up” and slamming the cam as it turns on and off frequently.

I drove a rental wagoneer the other day on a 10 day road trip with the hemi engine and the electric torque assist. I was surprised honestly… I put 2700 miles on it driving from nor cal to socal then to Arizona, through Nevada and home. It only activated ”eco mode” a handful of times, 23mpg average for the entire trip. My truck will go into eco mode if I blip the throttle and let off fast. Point is, maybe the constant on off of the MDS “around the early years 2015 ect causes that constant “slapping” the cam when disengaging and re-engaging. Again just talking out loud. Anyone that’s tore into these motors have thoughts or comments?

Failure of the needle bearings in the lifter is what stops the roller from rotating constantly on the cam, thereby making a flat spot on the lifter and the damage just continuing and taking out the cam. Again, an oiling issue.

 

[Hellcatsrock]

There’s a lot going on here… first off good on you to make these repairs yourself. It’s a big task.

Second of all screw the dealer quoting $11k you can buy a brand new hemi for $4k. I’m in Cali and thought the prices here were bad. Sheesh.

As far as lifters goes, I paid $500 after making an offer that was accepted.
The ones I recieved have the same laser etching as my originals and came in sealed boxes that appear to be the same boxes others get from Mopar. I believe mine are real but I’m just as astonished as you because the Mopar website wanted $1200 for the same set.

Why do you think you have a cracked head? Besides the dealer saying so? If you already have the heads off give them a good once over before buying a new one. You said no local machine shops, if that’s the case honestly having your heads checked / cleaned surfaced and pressure tested is worth a pretty lengthy drive to me personally… especially if you compression tested at 200 and hatching on cylinders looks good. These heads don’t tend to have issues unless you overheated it pretty darn bad.

I agree with you because I’m doing the same stuff. I have it apart so why not replace thermostat water pump, fan clutch hell I’m even replacing the radiator cap. Me personally I’m not replacing timing components but I have already inspected them. Worst case scenario pulling front timing cover isn’t really hard on these motors so if down the road there’s an issue I’ll address it.

As far as your exhaust manifolds go, I would take your originals, buy a straight edge off amazon and check them once you have them cleaned up. If they are off by more than a couple thousandths (check with feeler guage $5 at harbor freight) then buy a cheap 1’ sanding block off amazon and do it yourself. They will never break bolts again. Your new ones are likely more out of spec than the old ones I can go into detail about that if you want, just let me know. I say all this assuming a machine shop is totally out of the question.

My local machine shop surfaces exhaust manifolds for $50 each, I’m having both my heads cleaned, surfaced, pressure tested, new valve seals, and springs for $340. (Springs and seals supplied by me).

Also I’m sure remflex gaskets are great, lots of people swear by them. I put felpro on mine which have the heat deflectors and they work great. $50 for the set. $22 for Dorman bolts per side on amazon. Just my two cents definitely not the Bible.

Replace those crummy stock manifolds with much heavier duty units from BD Oil. Each of weigh more than a pound more than the factory units. They come with gasket and special bolts with stand offs to prevent problems with flexing in the future. I got mine for $513 including shipping and they were delivered in two days. The mechanic who changed them was impressed.

 

[Wild one]

Change your oil pump to a hellcat unit or the high volume Melling unit. Call Melling and they will know exactly what pump you are talking about. At warmed up temperatures and idling the factory pump does not put enough volume through, leading to these failures per many engine builders. I was gonna do mine but I got tired of all the BS and traded it in this week on a laramie with the straight 6. It felt great driving it, and an 8 year extended warranty can be had for around $2000.

Clue me into how the higher volume pumps put more oil onto the cam lobe and lifter wheel,when both are out in the open,in the middle of the crankcase,with no pressurized oil fed to either. You're better off upping the idle rpm then sticking a high volume pump in place of the stock pump.The only guy promoting the high volume pumps in a stock engine is Sky at Reingnited. The hi-po engine builders are reconmending the HV pumps to offset opened up bearing clearances and to supply enough oil volume to feed Johnson lifters with-out starving the rest of the oiling system,from the Johnsons built in internal oil leak.

 

[Barr2255]

Clue me into how the higher volumn pumps put more oil onto the cam lobe and lifter wheel,when both are out in the open,in the middle of the crankcase,with no pressurized oil fed to either. You're better off upping the idle rpm then sticking a high volumn pump in place of the stock pump.Only guy promoting the high volumn pumps in a stock engine is Sky at Reingnited. The hi=po engine builders are reconmending the HV pumps to offset opened up bearing clearances and to supply enough oil volumn to feed Johnson lifters with-out starving the rest of the oiling system,from the Johnsons built in internal oil leak.

This is 100% true. Even the machine shop owner elaborated on this. The cam relies on crank splash for oil and ever since they lifted the cam up higher in the block is when these failures started to appear. The lifter do actually get quite a bit of oil, mine were pretty darn soaked when I pulled them. Including the one that failed.

Before tearing down my motor I pulled the drivers side valve cover and started the truck to watch the valve springs to see if they were all compressing evenly. They were but the point of that is the amount of oil that was being pumped up was plenty adequate. My personal opinion the lifters get adequate oil.

After looking at the lobes on my cam they all had significant wear. The lifters all looked great and felt great bearing wise no side to side play or anything but yet the lobes have wear. The only lifter that was bad was the one that failed, did it fail because the cam did? No one will ever know that answer. One of the lobes on my cam had a decent pit in it, that lifter was fine.

With all that said I’m a civil engineer not a mechanical engineer but with that said, more volume of oil wouldn’t hurt anything but in this case I don’t think it would help anything. I’m not scared to spend the extra $160 but I truly don’t think it would make a difference. The oil pump isn’t providing oil to the cam lobes in this engine. If it was DOHC then maybe.

Also I know this will cause waves but I don’t really take advice from people that mention taking their truck to a mechanic for repairs after giving advice. Group of buddies doing a repair is different but a mechanic for exhaust manifolds? Come on we’re talking real engine stuff.

 

[Barr2255]

Change your oil pump to a hellcat unit or the high volume Melling unit. Call Melling and they will know exactly what pump you are talking about. At warmed up temperatures and idling the factory pump does not put enough volume through, leading to these failures per many engine builders. I was gonna do mine but I got tired of all the BS and traded it in this week on a laramie with the straight 6. It felt great driving it, and an 8 year extended warranty can be had for around $2000.

I do commend you for understanding the difference between volume and PSI they don’t always go hand in hand! Thanks for your input.

Those straight sixes are having major issues with the thermostat housing being plastic. Glad you got a good warranty. I love my hemi but no more gasser engines for me in the future.

 

[Barr2255]

Replace those crummy stock manifolds with much heavier duty units from BD Oil. Each of weigh more than a pound more than the factory units. They come with gasket and special bolts with stand offs to prevent problems with flexing in the future. I got mine for $513 including shipping and they were delivered in two days. The mechanic who changed them was impressed.

The factory exhaust manifolds are plenty good, once they warp and break the bolts they are usually done warping. Get them surfaced by a machine shop and they won’t fail again, $50 in northern cali... Your “beefier” cast iron exhaust manifolds will warp eventually (the site doesn't say how thick they are). The stock ones are dang near 3/4”. Cast iron attached to an aluminum head will always cause warping. They heat and cool at different rates.

I am curious what this “special” gasket is and “special” bolts? The website doesn’t elaborate. You put too strong of a bolt (grade 8) in that aluminum head and that cast iron manifold warps you risk pulling the threads in the soft aluminum. I rather break a bolt and weld a nut on to it to remove, than re-tap/ heli-coil the head. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Barr2255]

You guys won’t believe this… or maybe you will!
I just got a call from the machine shop, they said the heads passed pressure test so no cracks or anything but 3 intake valves and two exhaust valves failed the vaccum test. Both heads were affected, he said they cleaned them up and tried again but same problem. He suggested they cut the seats and grind the valves. $900 to do the pair. They are a very trusted shop in the area.
I don’t mind having it done but damn was not expecting to be out another $900.

I asked him what could cause it because it was running fine prior to disassembly, not much of an answer. Ugh. Happy Friday!