Gas vs Diesel

[winesalot]

Long time 2001 Ram 2500 diesel owner, I've owned a towing company for 17 years, I now own a winery and need to tow heavy loads on my 25k gvw gooseneck trailer.

The 2001 has seen better days and we are looking at getting a new truck. Prices are steep so I want to make sure I get what is best for my needs.

We put about 8,000 miles a year on our truck. 5,000 of that comes during the grape harvest season where we are traveling 3-4 hours each way to pick up grapes and we make that trip 5 days a week for 6 weeks a year. We really work the truck during harvest. We have a dual wheel-dual axle trailer that is 25k gvw but weighs around 4500 lbs so our cargo capacity is around 20k. It is a gooseneck trailer and out load is in 4 ft square bins that pack and stack easily so we are able to pull maximum weight with very little tongue weight on the truck. (Yes, we know enough to have a safe amount of tongue weight. We definitely do not need the weight carrying capacity of a dually and have never felt like we overloaded the 2500 with too much weight. The truck needs to pull hard and that is it. The trailer has very hearty disk brakes on it so the truck isn't doing a lot of the stopping for us.

With the extra cost of the Cummins engine and diesel prices typically being higher than gas over the last few years, I am wondering if it makes economic sense to buy a diesel again?

What kind of empty and heavily loaded mileage are you guys getting in the new trucks both in diesel or gas? I don't mind if the gas rigs are a bit underpowered for climbing hills, I am willing to slow down a bit nd, like I have to do with the 2001, I am also willing to drive the shoulder in 4wd low for the real steep stuff.

I love the Cummins as well as the next guy but I am trying to make a solid business decision and keep pride an ego out of the equation.

Thoughts?

 

[rzr6-4]

Given that 63% of your miles are towing with half of those being loaded fairly heavy I would definitely go diesel. Gassers are good for occasional heavy towing or and regular moderate towing, but if you are frequently pulling those loads the diesel will have a much better time.

You bring up mileage.....when pulling your mileage is never going to be good, but gassers really take a dive when things get heavy. Unloaded your overall operating costs will be lower with the gas but when you are getting single digit mpgs with your 6.4, that's when the diesel starts to pay for itself.

 

[OC455]

I don't mind if the gas rigs are a bit underpowered for climbing hills,

If you are talking about 20k lbs., towing you better go with the diesel. It's not about the tongue/pin weight, it's about getting the load moving, and yanking that kind of weight around with a 6.4 Hemi isn't going to do it well.

I used my brothers 14ft high side dump trailer, (4000lbs. empty weight) and put 6 yards of pea gravel in it and decided I'd be okay for a short distance....7 miles (way overloaded). It was not fun and the best I could get my truck moving was about 35 MPH up a slight grade. Not recommended. Get the diesel. Average unloaded mileage at best 13 MPG on a good day....the best I've gotten just driving was 14.1 MPG empty with the 6.4 Hemi.

 

[OC455]

A Tradesman 3500 with the Cummins isn't much more than a 2500 and it would be better on the wallet as far as pricing is concerned for a Tradesman model if you are looking for no frills.

 

[KKBB]

I have had both the Cummins and the 6.4 hemi. I have the 6.4 hemi now and pull a 11k fifth wheel a few times a year. Everytime I pull the camper or the boat, I wish I still had the Cummins. I only tow around 55 miles one way to our place we go boating and camping, and I was actually looking at getting back into the Cummins just because I love it so much more while towing!! I didn't and won't go that route because 95% of the time I drive 1 mile to work and the hemi is just better for that. Towing as much as you will, and as heavy as you say, I just can't imagine doing that with the hemi!!!

 

[2003F350]

Going to agree with the guys above, get the diesel for your application. Sure, the Hemi will do it, no question, but it isn't going to like it, it's going to struggle to get this moving and pulling grades, where the CTD is going to just chug along doing what it's built to do.

I do think that you'd be better served stepping up to a 3500 - if only for the leaf springs. You're pulling a lot of weight, and since they switched the 2500 to coils, many guys are complaining that it doesn't seem to handle the weight as well as the older leaf spring 2500s - which is probably true, the 4-link style suspension under the newer 2500s does have more lateral 'give' to it, which is inherent to its design. Leaf springs are more rigid and fight things like sway quite a bit better.

The price difference isn't much between comparably-equipped 2500s and 3500s, maybe $1500-$2k, so if you can swing that little bit extra I think you'd be more comfortable pulling the load you're looking at.

 

[nlambert182]

I would definitely advise for the Cummins for that load. You'll get better mpg loaded and struggle a whole lot less. IF you can get the pin weight dialed in where you can stay below the payload on the 2500 I would say that might make sense but the coil sprung suspension makes it ridiculously low. A 3500 single rear wheel might be just the ticket to give you the leaf springs.

To give you an idea on my unloaded mpg...
My previous 2016 3500 (4.10 gearing) got about 16.5 city when empty and close to 18mpg on the highway empty. Towing my previous 43' 16.5k fifth wheel on relatively flat ground I would see in the 11-12 mpg range.
My current 2500 (3.42 gearing) averages 18.5 city and over 22 mpg highway (empty). I haven't picked up the camper for this one yet, but I anticipate being somewhere between 12 -15 mpg range (but it's also 9,800 lbs gross weight).

As a comparison, my previous 2018 Ram 1500 only got 18.5-19 mpg city empty, which is about the same as this 2500 megacab gets now.

 

[Choupique]

put about 8,000 miles a year on our truck

Man that is low.

I'm going to be an outlier here but I'd get a 3500 gas burner dually. The upfront cost of the diesel is never going to be recouped. At such low mileage, you're likely to run into issues associated with DEF degradation like fouled sensors and clogged lines and injectors. You just won't be cycling through it often enough.

Sure, the gas engine will lose a race to a diesel every time. It's going to win the financial race though.

 

[nlambert182]

Man that is low.

I'm going to be an outlier here but I'd get a 3500 gas burner dually. The upfront cost of the diesel is never going to be recouped. At such low mileage, you're likely to run into issues associated with DEF degradation like fouled sensors and clogged lines and injectors. You just won't be cycling through it often enough.

Sure, the gas engine will lose a race to a diesel every time. It's going to win the financial race though.

I disagree. The mileage isn't what kills emissions equipment. Not running the equipment hard enough when it's in use does. If the OP intends to use this as a heavy hauler, it will get worked. Does that eliminate the potential for an emissions failure? No. But it greatly reduces the chances. Unless the truck sits for months at a time without ever being started or ran, the def injector and lines will be purged enough. If the OP intends to run it long term, which I think he will considering his current truck the diesel will pay for itself. They're a long term payback over a short term. If he were only going to keep it 4-5 years, I'd probably lean more towards gas myself.

The 6.4 would work but it would need to have a stiff set of gearing behind it (like 4.10s or greater) to comfortably tow.

 

[Scottly]

Man that is low.

I'm going to be an outlier here but I'd get a 3500 gas burner dually. The upfront cost of the diesel is never going to be recouped. At such low mileage, you're likely to run into issues associated with DEF degradation like fouled sensors and clogged lines and injectors. You just won't be cycling through it often enough.

Sure, the gas engine will lose a race to a diesel every time. It's going to win the financial race though.

Disagree. My 3500 Cummins sees 5K miles per year, mostly local. NEVER an issue with emmissions equipment. And the upfront cost, which is $9800, will be recouped on resale. Go to NADA, KBB, etc., compare two identical 4yr old trucks, one with diesel option, one without. The difference in resale is almost exactly what the diesel option costs upfront.

 

[Choupique]

My 3500 Cummins sees 5K miles per year, mostly local. NEVER an issue with emmissions equipment

How old is it and how many miles?

DEF has issues with long term storage above ~80*F. Unless you live in an ideal climate for it, you're going to have issues if you aren't burning through it or replacing it often enough.

I do this for a living. If the diesel was the right choice, fleets wouldn't be buying gas burners. Diesel is certainly more fun to drive but it loses the financial battle to the gasser 10/10 times. If we are talking business the only reason you get a diesel is because you can't get a gas rated for the job.

 

[andymax]

As a long time business owner & CEO, I'd seriously consider renting a truck for Harvest month. Even if it costs you $5K for the month, you are financially way ahead. You don't describe usage during the other ~3000 miles, but those could be covered by either a rental or maybe a 2500 gasser which will be much more economical.

 

[nlambert182]

How old is it and how many miles?

DEF has issues with long term storage above ~80*F. Unless you live in an ideal climate for it, you're going to have issues if you aren't burning through it or replacing it often enough.

I do this for a living. If the diesel was the right choice, fleets wouldn't be buying gas burners. Diesel is certainly more fun to drive but it loses the financial battle to the gasser 10/10 times. If we are talking business the only reason you get a diesel is because you can't get a gas rated for the job.

I still disagree and I used to work in the shop that worked on these types of engines and emissions systems. You don't have to cycle through DEF every month for it to hold up but I do agree that it can't sit long term with no use. That can cause problems. All it would require is for the OP to take the truck on a drive a few times per month (run an errand) to keep the DEF cycling enough.

Fleets buy gas burners for local use, not for over the road or heavy hauling. Go out and look at hotshot companies and heck even big rigs. Why aren't they running gas? 1) Longevity and 2) torque/power. It only loses the financial battle if you don't need it. I'd argue that if you need to tow a heavy load and want to buy one truck for a long term, diesel wins. It retains a better resale value and you can put many more miles on a diesel than a typical gas burner.

The ONLY Ram gas truck that I can think of that would be capable of towing it well enough to get the job done would be a 3500 Ram with a 6.4 and 4.10 gearing. It has enough payload as long as the OP doesn't load the trailer to max GVWR. If he does, then he's short there too. Max trailer GVWR would be 17k lbs. The OP already said the GVWR on his trailer was 25k.

The max trailer GVWR on a 6.7 with an Aisin is 34k lbs and with a 68RFE he's looking at 21.6K lbs. BIG difference.

 

[Scottly]

How old is it and how many miles?

DEF has issues with long term storage above ~80*F. Unless you live in an ideal climate for it, you're going to have issues if you aren't burning through it or replacing it often enough.

I live in Florida...It's a '21, has less than 20K on the clock. HOWEVER, it gets run almost everyday. No issues. My '18 was treated in a similar fashion, no issues.

 

[Choupique]

not for over the road or heavy hauling

There are absolutely a bunch of 4500 and 5500 gas burner trucks out there hauling very heavy stuff all the time.

Big rigs and hot shot trucks are on the road hooked up all the time. Service trucks are by and large gas burners. They cost less up front and cost less to operate. OP is talking about a short harvesting season once a year. He doesn't need a diesel, nor do 90% of the people who drive them. It's absolutely more fun, and with enough weight it becomes necessary. It's not necessary in this case and is money poorly spent unless smiles per mile is an important metric. There's nothing wrong with that being the justification. This is America. I have one and absolutely don't need it.

 

[winesalot]

Thank you all so much for the great (and civil) responses. I love a good debate and you all make great points.

I would still like to hear more real world fuel mileage from both the diesel and gas folks both empty and pulling a heavy trailer.

 

[winesalot]

Andymax, renting is an interesting idea? Who would rent such a vehicle?

 

[Choupique]

I can tell you that my 2500 diesel towing a 6000lb boat on flat ground gets about 13 mpg round trip. 21ish mpg unloaded. Dragging a 10k lb trailer 75 mph across Colorado, about 10.5 mpg.

At $1+ a gallon more than gas, it takes a bunch of miles to get ahead. One SCR failure, or injector failure, or any failure to so with the engine drastically increases the duration to get ahead. At the mileage you are driving you'll never see it.

 

[nlambert182]

Andymax, renting is an interesting idea? Who would rent such a vehicle?

Enterprise has a commercial service that rents trucks like this.

 

[2003F350]

I still disagree and I used to work in the shop that worked on these types of engines and emissions systems. You don't have to cycle through DEF every month for it to hold up but I do agree that it can't sit long term with no use. That can cause problems. All it would require is for the OP to take the truck on a drive a few times per month (run an errand) to keep the DEF cycling enough.

Fleets buy gas burners for local use, not for over the road or heavy hauling. Go out and look at hotshot companies and heck even big rigs. Why aren't they running gas? 1) Longevity and 2) torque/power. It only loses the financial battle if you don't need it. I'd argue that if you need to tow a heavy load and want to buy one truck for a long term, diesel wins. It retains a better resale value and you can put many more miles on a diesel than a typical gas burner.

The ONLY Ram gas truck that I can think of that would be capable of towing it well enough to get the job done would be a 3500 Ram with a 6.4 and 4.10 gearing. It has enough payload as long as the OP doesn't load the trailer to max GVWR. If he does, then he's short there too. Max trailer GVWR would be 17k lbs. The OP already said the GVWR on his trailer was 25k.

The max trailer GVWR on a 6.7 with an Aisin is 34k lbs and with a 68RFE he's looking at 21.6K lbs. BIG difference.

I'm in agreement here.

We have a fleet of 4 trucks, one 3/4 ton (gasser), two 1 tons (one a gasser, one a CTD dually), and an F450 (PSD). Newest one is the 1 ton gasser, it's a '23, everything else is a '20 or older.

We use the CTD dually as our heavy haul truck, it is almost always hooked up to our gooseneck, but it only gets run MAYBE 5 times a month on 300-400 mile round trips. Rarely has issues, and NEVER with DEF or DPF.

The F450 almost always has an enclosed trailer hooked up behind it hauling gang boxes full of tools, welders, pipe benders/hose crimper carts, and smaller components to install. Only major issue it's had with the DEF was the tank cracked one time. No DPF issues.

We OCCASIONALLY use the gassers for towing, but basically only if both of the diesels are gone or if one of them is broke down (doesn't happen often). More often than not the gassers are people movers, maybe a small gang box of tools in the bed or some small equipment. Can they do the work? Sure. But we try to keep our fleet at 2 and 2 because we need to haul 20+k lbs, and that's where diesels shine.