What is the control mode for coolant 3-way HVAC valve?

[SWED]

Hi everyone,

There's something I'd like to learn about the 3-way coolant valve.

I'm a Dodge Nitro owner and aimed at installing RAM valve as a diverter to have the heater deactivated when unnecesary.
Currently I'm fiddling with F4850R27 HVAC valve (Father Motors) which is an aftermarket copy of RAM Ecodiesel 52014971AB.
Thanks to this forum now I know the pinout on the valve side. However, the pin numbering was missing.
Since I don't have a RAM truck I don't have any harness either. So I tracked down the mama socket and it's highly likely a Molex mx150 33472-series 6-pin 3x2 socket with keying option D.







Unfortunatelly, my local stores had only keying option A available so I had to grind off the plastic keys on the valve side (2 red lines on the photo).

Also, here is the insight of this F4850R27 valve (please note the corresponding numbering of the connector pins on the PCB).




Now that I know the pinouts I'm ready to have the valve powered... But I don't know the parameters of the control signal.

Hence my questions are:

(1) What is the voltage range of the CONTROL signal (5V or 12V)?
(2) What is the control mode (PWM or analog)?
(3) For PWM: what is the frequency?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Daw14]

A plumbing valve in-line in the heater hose going to the heater core will stop the flow of coolant . No electric involved.
This can be used with any vehicle.

 

[SWED]

Yes, but no

At this stage the valve will be a copy of a bi-stable solenoid cutting off the heater anytime I set the Temp to LOW. Later on when I get rid of the stock HVAC and replace with my custom one the heater will be 100% controlled via this valve. That's the idea behind all this. I just cannot tolerate the always hot heater core in the cab any more.

 

[SWED]

So does anyone know the control mode of the signal?

 

[Wild one]

Hi everyone,

There's something I'd like to learn about the 3-way coolant valve.

I'm a Dodge Nitro owner and aimed at installing RAM valve as a diverter to have the heater deactivated when unnecesary.
Currently I'm fiddling with F4850R27 HVAC valve (Father Motors) which is an aftermarket copy of RAM Ecodiesel 52014971AB.
Thanks to this forum now I know the pinout on the valve side. However, the pin numbering was missing.
Since I don't have a RAM truck I don't have any harness either. So I tracked down the mama socket and it's highly likely a Molex mx150 33472-series 6-pin 3x2 socket with keying option D.

View attachment 584208


View attachment 584206


Unfortunatelly, my local stores had only keying option A available so I had to grind off the plastic keys on the valve side (2 red lines on the photo).

Also, here is the insight of this F4850R27 valve (please note the corresponding numbering of the connector pins on the PCB).

View attachment 584207


Now that I know the pinouts I'm ready to have the valve powered... But I don't know the parameters of the control signal.

Hence my questions are:

(1) What is the voltage range of the CONTROL signal (5V or 12V)?
(2) What is the control mode (PWM or analog)?
(3) For PWM: what is the frequency?

Thanks in advance!

Brass Electric Solenoid Valve for Water Control 1/2" DC12V Normally Closed Water Control Solenoid Valve Electric Water Control Valve : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific

Brass Electric Solenoid Valve for Water Control 1/2" DC12V Normally Closed Water Control Solenoid Valve Electric Water Control Valve : Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.ca

 

[SWED]

Come on guys, it's for experimental and educational purposes... I need exactly this stock RAM valve and I want to get it fully operational. That's why I need info on the control mode (analog or PWM; freq in case of PWM). I could've installed the alternatives long ago but it's not my target.
Any ideas on the subject?

 

[GeauxinUp]

 

[Wild one]

Come on guys, it's for experimental and educational purposes... I need exactly this stock RAM valve and I want to get it fully operational. That's why I need info on the control mode (analog or PWM; freq in case of PWM). I could've installed the alternatives long ago but it's not my target.
Any ideas on the subject?

You might have to start searching to find what you need,as you might be going down a path nobody else has.Dig up a wiring diagram for the valve and see what it says,then Google might be another place to look.
Expecting somebody to help you out,when you're doing something nobody else has done just might be a stretch on your part.
Start bench testing the valve and see what happens with 12 volts and 5 volts

 

[SWED]

Sounds fine but it won't be quite true to say I haven't done my homework:
- ChatGPT fails here and there and nothing useful pops up regarding tech specs anywhere Control specs are not publicly available...
- I've got service manuals and wiring diagrams for my both Nitro & Grand Cherokee WK but I failed to find any such PDF's for RAMs 2018+
- I've got no access to local RAMs to take the scope and try them out in the field

I got here just in attempt to find real RAM owners that might know something by chance... Or maybe someone could share any other useful info or a manual whatsoever...

 

[Wild one]

Sounds fine but it won't be quite true to say I haven't done my homework:
- ChatGPT fails here and there and nothing useful pops up regarding tech specs anywhere Control specs are not publicly available...
- I've got service manuals and wiring diagrams for my both Nitro & Grand Cherokee WK but I failed to find any such PDF's for RAMs 2018+
- I've got no access to local RAMs to take the scope and try them out in the field

I got here just in attempt to find real RAM owners that might know something by chance... Or maybe someone could share any other useful info or a manual whatsoever...

Buttar up @Ken226 and @RamDiver ,they might look up the wiring diagrams for you if you talk nice to them
You do realize the valve you're using doesn't have a great rep for being long lifed,they do give trouble fairly often,which is probably why Ram only used them for a couple years before doing away with them

 

[04fxdwgi]

I got here just in attempt to find real RAM owners that might know something by chance... Or maybe someone could share any other useful info or a manual whatsoever...

Hahahaha. That's the way to butter em up..

Best of luck in your quest.

 

[SWED]

You do realize the valve you're using doesn't have a great rep for being long lifed,they do give trouble fairly often,which is probably why Ram only used them for a couple years before doing away with them

Thanks for highlighting. Didn't know that. Is it poor mechanical (sealings) or electronical part?

 

[Wild one]

Thanks for highlighting. Didn't know that. Is it poor mechanical (sealings) or electronical part?

When they quit most guys just replace them,i'm not sure if i've seen anybody actually take one apart to see what does go wrong with them. You're venturing down a road nobody else has,and expect alot of answers,that nobody can answer
Good luck,but i can think of better and easier ways to do what you want,like using an electrically controlled shut off valve that only needs a momentary switch to run
I use a DPST momentary switch to control the actuators that open and close the active exhaust valves on my 300 , that never had factory active exhaust , same principle would work to control an electrically controlled shut off valve.Depending on how long i hold the momentary switch will determine how far open the valves open,or how far closed they'll go. Use a heavy duty momentary switch
Be a whole lot simpler to incorporate a similiar system,then what you're trying to do

 

[SWED]

Alright, I've successfully reversed this valve and here's the info for those who might be interested:

DISCLAIMER: this info corresponds to my F4850R27 HVAC valve (Father Motors). Though it is an aftermarket substitute of Mopar 52014971AB valve one should bear in mind that some differences in figures might take place (fine matching is not 100% guaranteed).

(1) Pinout
Once again, I'll make a copy of the pic from the above just to have all the relative info in a single post:



(2) The valve travels 90 degress between 2 endpoints:
- "100% flows to HTR": sensor feedback = 3.2 V
- "100% flows to ALT": sensor feedback = 1.8 V
- the ECU can stop the motor in any arbitrary position in between with a feedback voltage in the range of 1.8V..3.2V.

(3) Power consumption:
- when moving the valve draws 140 mA
- when idle the valve consumes only 50 mA (feeding logic only)
- when motor stalls (trying to get over the endpoint) = ~650 mA (I saw up to 700 mA once)

(4) Control
The motor rotates while PIN2 receives the PWM signal. Once the signal is off - motor stops in the current position.
My rough testing shows that the valve likes the frequencies over 25Hz. Operation under this value doesn't sound nice. I stopped testing @ 207 Hz just because got tired In the range 25..207 Hz motor sounds the same.

The direction is controlled via duty cycle:

Duty range / direction

- 10..37% / "HTR -> ALT"
- 62..89% / "ALT -> HTR"

I like 30% and 70% values and my valve appreciates that too

So this is how your valves operate

Below are some pics just for fun // the breakboard carries some junk resistors and led but they have nothing to do with the test... just didn't want to pull them out

 

[SWED]

Be a whole lot simpler to incorporate a similiar system,then what you're trying to do

Not a big deal to reverse. Though I hoped to get the easy way and collect other people experience if any...
I'm an engineer and I like all this stuff so I'm going the hard way

 

[Wild one]

Not a big deal to reverse. Though I hoped to get the easy way and collect other people experience if any...
I'm an engineer and I like all this stuff so I'm going the hard way

Typical engineer,over complicate a simple job
I think you should apply the "KISS" principle = Keep It Simple Stupid

 

[SWED]

Nopes, there's no other way to regulate the flow through the heater smoothly but an electronic valve. Simple on/off valve won't do.
I don't want to alter the stock flow (with a return line) so the bypass option required, hence the 3-way valve.
In this terms it's not overcomplicated, is it?

 

[Wild one]

Nopes, there's no other way to regulate the flow through the heater smoothly but an electronic valve. Simple on/off valve won't do.
I don't want to alter the stock flow (with a return line) so the bypass option required, hence the 3-way valve.
In this terms it's not overcomplicated, is it?

You apparently have never worked with a heater valve,it's not just on/off,as you can control the amount of flow through it by the amount you turn/open the valve.Same principle applies to the 3 way valve you want to use,it has a valve that can be opened or closed a certain amount to control the volumn of flow through the valves opening.Not sure how you think the 3 way valve operates,but it doesn't operate any differant then any other adjustable valve operates when it comes to the mechanical side of the valve,it's just the over complicated electronics it uses to control it's operation,a valve is a valve .
Hence the use of a momentary switch to only open or close it part way.
You're making things way to difficult,because you don't comprehend how a simple heater control valve works
Hell you could even use a ball valve with a lever,and use a 12 volt linear actuator to control it,similiar to what i use to control the active exhaust valves in my 300's exhaust,or what @Tray Burge used to control the flap in his hood scoop

There's lots of electrically controlled valves on Amazon

Amazon.ca : electrically controlled water valves

Amazon.ca : ball valves

Amazon.ca : linear actuator 12v

Six Pack Remote Functional Butterflies

Well, for those that have been following this, they're completed! Now I just need to put the finish on the scoop, cut a bid ol' hole in my hood and get'r mounted. Big shout out to Wild One for helping through the process. https://imgur.com/a/Hm1pIYi

www.ramforum.com

 

[SWED]

Wild one, I can't figure out what you are opposing.

Let's go the other way round. Imagine the following:
- you are an electromechanical engineer with all the hardware, tooling and skills
- task = control the temperature of the heater core in the cab
- limitation #1 = the return flow should never be shut off
- limitation #2 = the current in idle state should be below 100 mA

With that said can you propose a solution simpler than just incorporating a 3-way valve from RAM (operated by your custom controller)?

 

[Wild one]

Wild one, I can't figure out what you are opposing.

Let's go the other way round. Imagine the following:
- you are an electromechanical engineer with all the hardware, tooling and skills
- task = control the temperature of the heater core in the cab
- limitation #1 = the return flow should never be shut off
- limitation #2 = the current in idle state should be below 100 mA

With that said can you propose a solution simpler than just incorporating a 3-way valve from RAM (operated by your custom controller)?

What you're trying to do is way to complicated.Why do you need to never shut off "return flow",if you shut off the main feed,you automatically shut off return flow.The water pump bypasses the heater core flow if you shut off the main feed to the heater core,so not sure why you think the return feed has to be open,(which it will be with a shut off valve in the heater core feed)
You're being the typical engineer,you're over complicating a very simple task.Keep it simple and you can fix it on the side of the road with readily available parts
Carry on,i'm done trying to draw you a picture,that you apparently aren't grasping
Good luck with your endevour,and hopefully you're never on the side of the road at -30C trying to fix a trouble prone 3 way valve