Engine tick question

[reece]

I have a 2012 Ram 1500. Developed the tick at approximately 150,000 miles. Followed this forum's information trying to make the engine last as long as possible. At 230,000 miles the engine miss came. #1 misfire. Tore it down, cam status: #1 intake lobe is practically gone. I'm not saying it is inevitable, but once the tick is there, something has worn. I believe the life of the engine can be extended just a question of how long.
I have a question for others who have torn down to repair the cam. After removing the Cylinder Deactivation Solenoids (which was a pain). I inspected the ports. I found a magnet insert still in all 4 ports. Removed them, they were completely full of the metal grindings and small slivers from the wear that occurred on the cam. Watched many youtube videos and followed this forum. Did not hear any mention of these magnets? Question being, did I miss the information or are these things not getting mentioned?

 

[HEMIMANN]

Not sure what you mean by magnets in ports. Solenoids typically use electromagnets, which is a coil of wire wrapped around an iron rod, to push and pull a valve spool that ports oil to the lifter bore.

You got a long life engine, but I will say that using a super oil in the engine (like Red Line) from the get go may prevent tick and damage as long as possible - rather than waiting until audible tick damage has occurred, and only then attempt to slow it down.

Thanks for the data. Even as Stellantis has announced the end of this engine, there are and will be millions of them out there in service for many years to come that need continuing service.

 

[dkelly3103]

Is there a way to check for a faulty lifter/s if I pull the valve covers off? I have redline oil on the way but in the meantime I’d like to find out for sure whether or not I should be prepared to get them replaced.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Check engine fault codes 1st.....typically shows misfire. Bent pushrod usually only at the end of failure game. Otherwise, I don't know how you'd inspect the lifter without disassembly.

 

[dkelly3103]

Check engine fault codes 1st.....typically shows misfire. Bent pushrod usually only at the end of failure game. Otherwise, I don't know how you'd inspect the lifter without disassembly.

No engine codes at all. Didn’t know if a excess play on the valve train would tell me anything?

 

[Rod Knock]

Is there a way to check for a faulty lifter/s if I pull the valve covers off? I have redline oil on the way but in the meantime I’d like to find out for sure whether or not I should be prepared to get them replaced.

Yes, there is. You can measure valve lift:

Hemi Tick

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

The mechanic who started this thread explains how it's done.

 

[Rod Knock]

I have a 2012 Ram 1500. Developed the tick at approximately 150,000 miles. Followed this forum's information trying to make the engine last as long as possible. At 230,000 miles the engine miss came. #1 misfire. Tore it down, cam status: #1 intake lobe is practically gone. I'm not saying it is inevitable, but once the tick is there, something has worn. I believe the life of the engine can be extended just a question of how long.
I have a question for others who have torn down to repair the cam. After removing the Cylinder Deactivation Solenoids (which was a pain). I inspected the ports. I found a magnet insert still in all 4 ports. Removed them, they were completely full of the metal grindings and small slivers from the wear that occurred on the cam. Watched many youtube videos and followed this forum. Did not hear any mention of these magnets? Question being, did I miss the information or are these things not getting mentioned?

You will find that common sense and good information are primarily ignored here. Most people who have good information don't have time to spend on the forum and adequately disseminate it in an easy-to-understand format. In contrast, those that have the time don't have the know-how, so they just repeat non-sense like Uncle Tony said and evangelize it as fact. Still, it's just non-sense.

You can watch some of what I'm talking about right here:

Gen 3 Hemi Camshaft Failure Mystery Explained!

Once we started digging into the Gen 3's mysterious cam and lifter issues we discovered a series of major design flaws within the construction of the block. ...

www.youtube.com

 

[HEMIMANN]

Yes, there is. You can measure valve lift:

Hemi Tick

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

The mechanic who started this thread explains how it's done.

Yes, of course, this will diagnose a stuck lifter per OP question, but is unlikely to diagnose a stuck lifter roller, one of the reported primary causes of Hemi tick. So we should probably supply a little more knowledge about tick noise causation.

I don't recall reading about "stuck" lifters in failed Hemis? I do recall reading about brinelling, spalling, and eventually bouncing lifter rollers, then turning sideways and wiping the cam lobe.

I read more about collapsed lifters in GM AFM engines.

 

[Rod Knock]

Yes, of course, this will diagnose a stuck lifter per OP question, but is unlikely to diagnose a stuck lifter roller, one of the reported primary causes of Hemi tick.

A stuck roller won't survive for long. @dkelly3103 measure your valve lift or have someone do it for you, and you should know immediately if you have one or more bad lifters, whatever their condition might be. There is no coming back from seized rollers once they have been like that for a bit. "Better" oil won't solve your problem. At best, it can hide it for a while, but it still won't compensate for insufficient valve lift.

 

[dkelly3103]

So I got my results back today. I know others have said the test won’t tell me much, but would it still be safe to say I don’t have a seized roller on the lifter since there is no abnormal wear going on? Also to those who know what there looking at, do the results in general look alright for a higher mileage engine?

 

[Travis8352]

View attachment 481701
So I got my results back today. I know others have said the test won’t tell me much, but would it still be safe to say I don’t have a seized roller on the lifter since there is no abnormal wear going on? Also to those who know what there looking at, do the results in general look alright for a higher mileage engine?

I would say you dont have a stuck roller. However you added schaeffers moly ep? Moly doesnt seem to be boosted much

 

[dkelly3103]

Alright great that’s what I was thinking. I’m leaning more towards some type of exhaust leak at this point. And yes I added Shaeffers Moly supplement, I noticed the levels were low as well so I’m not sure what’s going on with that.

 

[Rod Knock]

View attachment 481701
So I got my results back today. I know others have said the test won’t tell me much, but would it still be safe to say I don’t have a seized roller on the lifter since there is no abnormal wear going on? Also to those who know what there looking at, do the results in general look alright for a higher mileage engine?

Schaffer's Moly EP uses Antimony as a friction reducer, not Molybdenum. You shouldn't need to add a friction reducer to oil as good as PUP 5W-30. These premium ILSAC fuel economy oils (Mobil 1 EP, Castrol EDGE EP, PUP, Schaeffer's, AMSOIL SS) are already dialed in for peak friction reduction. The only downside to them is that they are formulated assuming that they are run in a 100% healthy engine. That's why most of these oils have a High Mileage version. My preferred version of a high mileage oil is an ACEA A3/B4 class oil. Anyway, adding Schaeffer's to it won't improve anything. Most people don't think that when they mix in additives, they might hinder the performance of a fully formulated oil, but that's the case more often than not.

As to your tick, please make two videos, once at startup and once at hot idle. If you want to self-diagnose, you need to measure valve lift or get under the truck with a stethoscope, engine running, and try to listen to the engine block below the heads, though that might give mixed results. I don't trust stethoscopes for the most part. They can provide erroneous results. I can't help you diagnose it based just on forum posts alone. Exhaust manifold bolts usually break at the front or back first, so if your heat shield is loose when you pull on it, you can bet 100% that you have broken bolts. If you replace the bolts, replace all of them and have a machine shop straighten your warped manifolds or buy new ones. They need to be torqued in a specific sequence at 18 to 19 ft-lb, no more than 19 and no less than 18, and you need to go over them several times to make sure they are all appropriately torqued. Give them some rest, then go over them again. The main reason why they allow the manifold to warp and pull the bolts until they snap is that they are improperly torqued at the factory. Also, you want to build up to that 18~19 ft-lb, so you go 3->6->9->12->15->16->18 (if you have the patience, I highly recommend it). I did it this way, and after weeks of heat cycles, no single bolt is loose.

This is my 5.7 HEMI running on Mobil 1 FS 0W-40:

2016 RAM 1500 HEMI 5.7 on Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 - Hot Idle

2016 RAM 1500 HEMI 5.7 on Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 - Hot Idle

www.youtube.com

 

[Rod Knock]

@dkelly3103 and update would be excellent and much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[dkelly3103]

@dkelly3103 and update would be excellent and much appreciated. Thank you.

I haven’t had a chance to do much to it due to not having much extra time. I’m starting to think it’s exhaust leak again and not lifter noise since it’s been ticking the same for last 18k miles I’ve had it and it hasn’t gotten any worse. Plus the oil report I got back shows no excessive wear at all. There are no studs broken on either manifold, however I suspect they are warped pretty bad. I think I can hear a pretty bad exhaust leak on cold start but it’s hard to tell over my loud exhaust. I think what I have going on here is a decent exhaust leak at cold start (big enough leak to not just tick) and as it warms up that gap closes slightly from heat expansion and then it starts ticking like a normal smaller leak. Does that sound feasible?

 

[Rod Knock]

I haven’t had a chance to do much to it due to not having much extra time. I’m starting to think it’s exhaust leak again and not lifter noise since it’s been ticking the same for last 18k miles I’ve had it and it hasn’t gotten any worse. Plus the oil report I got back shows no excessive wear at all. There are no studs broken on either manifold, however I suspect they are warped pretty bad. I think I can hear a pretty bad exhaust leak on cold start but it’s hard to tell over my loud exhaust. I think what I have going on here is a decent exhaust leak at cold start (big enough leak to not just tick) and as it warms up that gap closes slightly from heat expansion and then it starts ticking like a normal smaller leak. Does that sound feasible?

If your startup noise is loud and quiets somewhat down, but you can hear it between 2000~3000 rpm sounding like a playing card in a bicycle wheel, then it's exhaust manifold related.

The "HEMI tick" that RedLine Oil is "curing" (yes, it's amusing to think of it as a cure) is, in fact, one or more out of tolerance lifters. They usually ship that way from the factory. RedLine contains esters, and they sometimes cause the oil to oxidate and slightly thicken (depending on the batch and how hot you run it). After running it for a few hundred miles, the oil becomes tacky and sticks to certain surfaces (when cold). So it hides the noise and compensates for the poor tolerances. RedLine Oil also contains more cleaning esters than other oils, like Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 for example. So it also cleans somewhat, though cleaning your engine is not the oil's job. But it's not a miracle worker. If you have rattling lifters, other than replacing them, I suggest cleaning your engine and running a good ACEA A3/B4 class oil. Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is readily available, but not the only ACEA A3/B4 oil. Its real viscosity is more like a Euro 0W-30 oil, with an HTHS of 3.6. RedLine 5W-30 is a bit thicker than that, and as I said, it becomes tacky with use. Normally, oils aren't supposed to do that, due to additive interference.

What you should take away is this: if you want to minimize your lifter/cam failure risk run the engine cooler by throwing a 190F thermostat in there. You're already running PP 5W-30, so until you know what's up I don't recommend switching oils. Proper diagnosis of the issue is key. Using thicker oil to hide engine problems is nothing new, people have been doing it for decades. Ever heard of Castrol GTX 20W-50? Btw, don't use that, lol.

 

[dkelly3103]

If your startup noise is loud and quiets somewhat down, but you can hear it between 2000~3000 rpm sounding like a playing card in a bicycle wheel, then it's exhaust manifold related.

The "HEMI tick" that RedLine Oil is "curing" (yes, it's amusing to think of it as a cure) is, in fact, one or more out of tolerance lifters. They usually ship that way from the factory. RedLine contains esters, and they sometimes cause the oil to oxidate and slightly thicken (depending on the batch and how hot you run it). After running it for a few hundred miles, the oil becomes tacky and sticks to certain surfaces (when cold). So it hides the noise and compensates for the poor tolerances. RedLine Oil also contains more cleaning esters than other oils, like Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 for example. So it also cleans somewhat, though cleaning your engine is not the oil's job. But it's not a miracle worker. If you have rattling lifters, other than replacing them, I suggest cleaning your engine and running a good ACEA A3/B4 class oil. Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is readily available, but not the only ACEA A3/B4 oil. Its real viscosity is more like a Euro 0W-30 oil, with an HTHS of 3.6. RedLine 5W-30 is a bit thicker than that, and as I said, it becomes tacky with use. Normally, oils aren't supposed to do that, due to additive interference.

What you should take away is this: if you want to minimize your lifter/cam failure risk run the engine cooler by throwing a 190F thermostat in there. You're already running PP 5W-30, so until you know what's up I don't recommend switching oils. Proper diagnosis of the issue is key. Using thicker oil to hide engine problems is nothing new, people have been doing it for decades. Ever heard of Castrol GTX 20W-50? Btw, don't use that, lol.

So something your first part reminded me of, when mds is active and I’m slowing down to a stop is sounds exactly like what you described. Playing card in a bike wheel. However only when mds is active and I’m slowing down. Otherwise I don’t hear any ticking aside from when at idle, if course my exhaust could be drowning it out too.

 

[dkelly3103]

If your startup noise is loud and quiets somewhat down, but you can hear it between 2000~3000 rpm sounding like a playing card in a bicycle wheel, then it's exhaust manifold related.

The "HEMI tick" that RedLine Oil is "curing" (yes, it's amusing to think of it as a cure) is, in fact, one or more out of tolerance lifters. They usually ship that way from the factory. RedLine contains esters, and they sometimes cause the oil to oxidate and slightly thicken (depending on the batch and how hot you run it). After running it for a few hundred miles, the oil becomes tacky and sticks to certain surfaces (when cold). So it hides the noise and compensates for the poor tolerances. RedLine Oil also contains more cleaning esters than other oils, like Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 for example. So it also cleans somewhat, though cleaning your engine is not the oil's job. But it's not a miracle worker. If you have rattling lifters, other than replacing them, I suggest cleaning your engine and running a good ACEA A3/B4 class oil. Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 is readily available, but not the only ACEA A3/B4 oil. Its real viscosity is more like a Euro 0W-30 oil, with an HTHS of 3.6. RedLine 5W-30 is a bit thicker than that, and as I said, it becomes tacky with use. Normally, oils aren't supposed to do that, due to additive interference.

What you should take away is this: if you want to minimize your lifter/cam failure risk run the engine cooler by throwing a 190F thermostat in there. You're already running PP 5W-30, so until you know what's up I don't recommend switching oils. Proper diagnosis of the issue is key. Using thicker oil to hide engine problems is nothing new, people have been doing it for decades. Ever heard of Castrol GTX 20W-50? Btw, don't use that, lol.

And by noise at startup I don’t mean ticking, not sure how to describe it but it sounds kind of like it’s sputtering if that makes sense. No ticking until it warms up.

 

[Rod Knock]

And by noise at startup I don’t mean ticking, not sure how to describe it but it sounds kind of like it’s sputtering if that makes sense. No ticking until it warms up.

It's an exhaust leak, I'm pretty sure. Wait for it to cool down and from underneath the truck see if you can pull any of the corners of the heat shields.

 

[Burla]

I would say you dont have a stuck roller. However you added schaeffers moly ep? Moly doesnt seem to be boosted much

There is a reason why this forum has embraced two products for this and not the others, moly ep is a classic example, it is an oil thickner with little moly and blue dye. Shaeffers moly ep might be the worse additive ever made, pretty sad they put their name on it, 23ppm moly it might actually lessen moly level. Hard to fathom, but this board has done all the work, tested all the known stuff, unless it is something new, just do a search on hemi tick and molybdenum,. Does that say operating viscosity 238? That is hard to believe, if that is true, I'd empty my crankcase if it had that in it asap.