Lifter Failure / Hot Oil / Better Cooling etc.

[Wild one]

If'n a guy has already goofed with tuning and doesn't want to get back into it to bump idle speed up, do you think putting the Hellcat pump in would flow enough at factory idle to help?

I honestly question that idea,as there's no oiling to the lifter bearings,so all the hellcat pump is doing is trying to force more oil down the side of the lifter.It's definitely not going to hurt,but i don't think it's the cure all Reignited Cycle makes it out to be.If i remember right you were messing around with a Diablo handheld weren't you. Throw that piece of s**** as far away as you can,and hunt up a tuner who is using HP instead.Diablo's are famous for bricking PCM's.

 

[HEMIMANN]

I honestly question that idea,as there's no oiling to the lifter bearings,so all the hellcat pump is doing is trying to force more oil down the side of the lifter.It's definitely not going to hurt,but i don't think it's the cure all Reignited Cycle makes it out to be.If i remember right you were messing around with a Diablo handheld weren't you. Throw that piece of s**** as far away as you can,and hunt up a tuner who is using HP instead.Diablo's are famous for bricking PCM's.

Didn't want a custom tune - it's a bolt-on Pulsar Edge PCM (by Diablo). It works, 50 state legal if I want to sell it with it left in. It's not adjustable. It has 8 pre-canned tunes that work good for my purposes.

I get your point, but the question is why would Chrysler, or FCA at the time, have a higher volume oil pump if that weren't beneficial somehow? Are the machine element loads that much higher (torque-wise) on hellcats, or are they getting "horsepower" via high rpm? Gearotor oil pumps are variable volume with engine rpm, of course (which is the point of bumping up idle speed = more oil flow).

What I'm wondering is if the Hellcat pump flows more volume at any given rpm than the stock pump.

 

[Wild one]

Didn't want a custom tune - it's a bolt-on Pulsar Edge PCM (by Diablo). It works, 50 state legal if I want to sell it with it left in. It's not adjustable. It has 8 pre-canned tunes that work good for my purposes.

I get your point, but the question is why would Chrysler, or FCA at the time, have a higher volume oil pump if that weren't beneficial somehow? Are the machine element loads that much higher (torque-wise) on hellcats, or are they getting "horsepower" via high rpm? Gearotor oil pumps are variable volume with engine rpm, of course (which is the point of bumping up idle speed = more oil flow).

What I'm wondering is if the Hellcat pump flows more volume at any given rpm than the stock pump.

The Hellcats use an external oil cooler and piston oil squirters,so you need more volume to compensate,and supposedly they run a bit looser bearing clearances then the 5.7's do.I can't confirm the bearing clearances,as i've never had a 6.2 apart and measured them,but that's what the rumour mill is claiming.

 

[HEMIMANN]

The Hellcats use an external oil cooler and piston oil squirters,so you need more volume to compensate,and supposedly they run a bit looser bearing clearances then the 5.7's do.I can't confirm the bearing clearances,as i've never had a 6.2 apart and measured them,but that's what the rumour mill is claiming.

I thought the 6.4 in trucks has piston cooling nozzles? Not sure about the oil cooler.

 

[Wild one]

I thought the 6.4 in trucks has piston cooling nozzles? Not sure about the oil cooler.

All 6.4's have the piston squirters,but they don't have the 6.2's stand alone oil cooler.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Seeing as how you seem to be hung up on hot idle pressures,my truck with dual remote filters and the idle rpm set at 725 has a hot idling oil pressure of 51/52 psi,and my 300C with the 5.7 has a hot idling pressure of 44 psi with it's idle set at 700 rpm,and it still uses the factory oil filter set-up,both run 5W-30 Redline and Royal Purple filters,the wifes 6.4 Challenger which is still on dealer supplied 0W-40 PUP idles at 44 psi with the idle rpm set at 700 rpm. The 2 cars run right around 56 psi at 60 mph,while the truck runs right around 58/59 psi with the dual filters at 60 mph. When we did my cam swap on the truck,the original cam and lifters were in perfect shape,and they actually went into a buddies girlfriends truck and she's since put another 100,000 miles on the cam,but when they went into her 2014,we converted her to 5W-30 Redline and 20-820 filters,and turned her idle rpm up to 700 rpm. Raising the idle rpm is still the best thing you can do to prolong lifter life in a Hemi in my opinion,as you get the same hot idling pressures as the either the Hellcat pump or Melling pump give you,plus the benefit of more crank splash onto the cam lobe and roller face. Forcing more oil down the side of the lifter still doesn't put all that much more oil onto the face of the roller wheel or cam lobe,you can accomplish more with a higher idle rpm and crank splash

Is there any way to raise my idle speed in my 2015 without having to spend $1000 on a tune? If not, that’s the only reason why I’m not considering it.

I’m already looking at $1700+ to do lifters, everything is just adding up.

I’ll go look at the lifter design again; is around the lifter bore the only way for oiling? Where does the oil that travels down the pushrod go? Into the top of the Lifter, but then where?

 

[crazykid1994]

Is there any way to raise my idle speed in my 2015 without having to spend $1000 on a tune? If not, that’s the only reason why I’m not considering it.

I’m already looking at $1700+ to do lifters, everything is just adding up.

I’ll go look at the lifter design again; is around the lifter bore the only way for oiling? Where does the oil that travels down the pushrod go? Into the top of the Lifter, but then where?

Unfortunately yes. Tuning is the only way to bump idle rpm up. Mine is set to 650. My idle oil pressure is 40psi hot. The lifters oiling is from the side of the bore and drips through the lifter. It’s hollow around the roller. You can see the hole in the side of the lifter.

 

[Wild one]

Is there any way to raise my idle speed in my 2015 without having to spend $1000 on a tune? If not, that’s the only reason why I’m not considering it.

I’m already looking at $1700+ to do lifters, everything is just adding up.

I’ll go look at the lifter design again; is around the lifter bore the only way for oiling? Where does the oil that travels down the pushrod go? Into the top of the Lifter, but then where?

The oil travels up the pushrod from the lifter,which as Khris has already stated gets it's oil from the lifter oil passage,then through the hole in the side of the lifter,then up through the pushrod to the rockers.

 

[DILLIGAF]

I’m already looking at $1700+ to do lifters, everything is just adding up.

1700$ for lifters ? I hope they are gold plated

 

[huntergreen]

MDS was already there in 2006 5.7 hemis. Lifter tick didn't really become a thing until the 2009 model years when they did the upgrades to VVT and eagle heads etc, but MDS was there before that.

Nonsense, the hemi tick has Ben around since 2003. Many of those trucks ticked happily to 300000 miles.

 

[Black1500Ram]

1700$ for lifters ? I hope they are gold plated

See page 13 for detailed parts list. Of that $1700, there’s some routine maintenance / upgrades that I don’t have to do. But for the whole job, lifters (and cam) is a $1k+ ordeal.

 

[Black1500Ram]

The oil travels up the pushrod from the lifter,which as Khris has already stated gets it's oil from the lifter oil passage,then through the hole in the side of the lifter,then up through the pushrod to the rockers.

This is counter to what I’ve read. From what I’ve seen oil flow was described as going from rockers down pushrods to lifters.

But again that’s just me reading, I’m no expert. I’ll find the websites to quote tomorrow.

 

[ramffml]

Nonsense, the hemi tick has Ben around since 2003. Many of those trucks ticked happily to 300000 miles.

The classic "hemi tick", which is lifter failure, wasn't a thing on the pre eagle hemis according to an FCA mechanic who actually fixed many of these engines.

The problem with the first hemis was dropping valve seats due to overheating. We traded that problem for lifter failure.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Nonsense, the hemi tick has Ben around since 2003. Many of those trucks ticked happily to 300000 miles.

Hopefully after replacement my engine will be good until 300k+, that's my hope anyway. I'm tired of her ticking and I'll need to pull my camper again at Christmas so I plan to fix it before then.

 

[Wild one]

This is counter to what I’ve read. From what I’ve seen oil flow was described as going from rockers down pushrods to lifters.

But again that’s just me reading, I’m no expert. I’ll find the websites to quote tomorrow.

You're referring to the thread on Dodge Hemi truck club i bet,i disagree with his theory on the way the oil is routed to the rocker arms. It's my understanding the rocker shaft is oiled via the oil hole in the head,but the rocker arm/pushrod cup and valve spring are lubed from what comes up through the pushrod. Finding a proper oil flow diagram for a Gen 3 Hemi is virtually impossible though,so we're really doing nothing but guessing

 

[Black1500Ram]

You're referring to the thread on Dodge Hemi truck club i bet,i disagree with his theory on the way the oil is routed to the rocker arms. It's my understanding the rocker shaft is oiled via the oil hole in the head,but the rocker arm/pushrod cup and valve spring are lubed from what comes up through the pushrod. Finding a proper oil flow diagram for a Gen 3 Hemi is virtually impossible though,so we're really doing nothing but guessing

I don't think it was that but I'll check later.

I've only had Japanese engines apart on stands, so again I'm no authority.

IMO if there's no pressurized oil in the cam valley, there's not really way a for it to go against gravity and travel upwards. I know our pushrods are almost horizontal, but its still a rise in elevation and therefore fighting gravity, so it can't drip up.

 

[Wild one]

I don't think it was that but I'll check later.

I've only had Japanese engines apart on stands, so again I'm no authority.

IMO if there's no pressurized oil in the cam valley, there's not really way a for it to go against gravity and travel upwards. I know our pushrods are almost horizontal, but its still a rise in elevation and therefore fighting gravity, so it can't drip up.

If there's no pressurized oil to the lifters,how do they go in and out of MDS and pump up the lifter piston.The cam valley as you're calling it is just a covered open space under the intake

 

[Black1500Ram]

If there's no pressurized oil to the lifters,how do they go in and out of MDS and pump up the lifter piston.The cam valley as you're calling it is just a covered open space under the intake

I didn't mean to infer that there is no pressurized oil, I'm just questioning is the open surface near the camshaft (bottom of lifters) pressurized (splash lubrication like you mentioned)?

My understanding is the pressurized oil that does reach the lifters comes through the main oil galley which will then flow to the lower pressure area which should be below the lifters not above (since the rockers should receive pressurized oil also).

Not saying this is fact just a proposition. I'm more interested in why only a few percentage of the same design engines fail when the majority don't that's the true quandary to me.

 

[HEMIMANN]

I understood the oil drainback from the rockers was down the lifter bores. With siamese Hemi valve orientation, the gravity drain angle is less than a standard valve engine, making oil flow slower. Then they moved the cam up to make room for the VVT cam phaser assembly, further lessening the drain angle.

The drainback oil lubricates the lifter perimeter in the bore, and drips down to the cam. This is poor lubrication for the cam and lifter roller and roller bearings. It is critical to use free flowing oil at all temperatures with heavy supplemental dry lubricant additives to make the cam train survive.

Very poor design.

 

[Wild one]

I didn't mean to infer that there is no pressurized oil, I'm just questioning is the open surface near the camshaft (bottom of lifters) pressurized (splash lubrication like you mentioned)?

My understanding is the pressurized oil that does reach the lifters comes through the main oil galley which will then flow to the lower pressure area which should be below the lifters not above (since the rockers should receive pressurized oil also).

Not saying this is fact just a proposition. I'm more interested in why only a few percentage of the same design engines fail when the majority don't that's the true quandary to me.

Not sure what you're asking here as the camshaft lobe and bottom of lifter wheel sit out in the open basically in the crankcase,they aren't enclosed by the block or the heads. The cam journals are part of the block,but not the cam lobes or bottom of the lifter.If you have the cam and lifters out,you can look through the bottom of the block right to the bottom of the heads by looking through the lifter holes.