Lifter Failure / Hot Oil / Better Cooling etc.

[1979PowerWagon360]

Remind me to do this when I go for my cam… I know I’ll forget.

I see a lot of discussion on engine oil coolers...Maybe you could just add one from factory Police 5.7?

 

[crazykid1994]

I see a lot of discussion on engine oil coolers...Maybe you could just add one from factory Police 5.7?

Did you mean to tag me on this one? I was commenting about installing a high volume oil pump. I already have a remote filter mount and the factory oil to water sandwich cooler on my truck. I’m planning on removing the factory sandwich cooler in lieu of an external type oil cooler and run a thermostat so a higher volume pump would be beneficial.

 

[Wild one]

Yeah I hear about the design changes - I'm not experienced enough going through the hemi engine to have an opinion on the contributing factors.

From what I've read and seen in pics / cutaway diagrams, its that the needle bearings in the lifters that are failing, causing the damage to the cam (effect). I'd love to get my hands on a damaged engine to take a look at one.

I might check out a local junk yard one day

That doesn't explain why the earlier engines don't have lifter failures,they had the smaller needle bearing lifters to,and their failure rate is virtually nil in comparision. The more oil the crank throws on the cam,the more oil the needle bearings will also absorb,they aren't a sealed bearing.

 

[Black1500Ram]

That doesn't explain why the earlier engines don't have lifter failures,they had the smaller needle bearing lifters to,and their failure rate is virtually nil in comparision. The more oil the crank throws on the cam,the more oil the needle bearings will also absorb,they aren't a sealed bearing.

Agreed. I don't think its just the smaller needle bearings, more a combination of things.

I see the material differences being: the cam is higher in the block, the addition of VVT and MDS. MDS I feel is a moot point since both MDS and non MDS engines have had lifter failures.

Was the oil spec different? Same oil pump flow rate / pressure? There's so much that could be contributory.

 

[Black1500Ram]

I'm not so sure the Hellcat pumps extra flow is all that needed in a 5.7,i'm leaning more towards the Melling pump being the better pump for a 5.7. The 6.2's and 6.4's have piston oil squirters that the 5.7's don't have,and the 6.2's also have an external oil cooler,that isn't on either the 5.7 or 6.4 engines. Awhile ago i was leaning towards the Hellcat pump,but not so much now that Melling has a middle of the road pump,but those are only my thoughts. The pump doesn't create anymore crank splash, which is what basically keeps the cam lubed at idle. I'm more leaning towards the Melling pump with the 60 psi spring,and turning the idle up to 700 or 750 rpm instead.

I'm curious your reasoning for the 60psi spring?

Isn't the reason to up the idle rpm is to get the pump spinning faster and thus flowing more oil? Wouldn't the higher flow pump eliminate the need for the higher idle speed?

 

[Wild one]

I'm curious your reasoning for the 60psi spring?

Isn't the reason to up the idle rpm is to get the pump spinning faster and thus flowing more oil? Wouldn't the higher flow pump eliminate the need for the higher idle speed?

Not really,upping the rpm throws more oil onto the cam.If you go back to the earlier 5.7's that had the cam closer to the crank,they have basically no lifter issues,and they used the smaller needle bearing lifters,with MDS lifters too,and idle at the same low rpm as the later 5.7's do,but the cam and crank are closer together,so the cam benefits from more crank splash. If you have any experience with an old style flat tappet cam,the first thing you did to break a new cam in,is run it at 2500 rpm for 20 minutes to 1/2 an hour to break it in,and the reason you did that was so the crank threw enough oil onto the cam lobe to keep the lobe and lifter face covered with a cushion of oil,roller cams aren't all that much differant in requiring some crank splash to keep things lubed. Stock pressure is roughly 58 to 60 psi,and the old school rule is roughly 10 psi per 1,000 rpm,so 5800/6,000 rpm equals 58 to 60 psi.

 

[Burn2k12Ram]

Not really,upping the rpm throws more oil onto the cam.If you go back to the earlier 5.7's that had the cam closer to the crank,they have basically no lifter issues,and they used the smaller needle bearing lifters,with MDS lifters too,and idle at the same low rpm as the later 5.7's do,but the cam and crank are closer together,so the cam benefits from more crank splash. If you have any experience with an old style flat tappet cam,the first thing you did to break a new cam in,is run it at 2500 rpm for 20 minutes to 1/2 an hour to break it in,and the reason you did that was so the crank threw enough oil onto the cam lobe to keep the lobe and lifter face covered with a cushion of oil,roller cams aren't all that much differant in requiring some crank splash to keep things lubed. Stock pressure is roughly 58 to 60 psi,and the old school rule is roughly 10 psi per 1,000 rpm,so 5800/6,000 rpm equals 58 to 60 psi.

Great info. To me it sounds like really a motor is only as good as it’s weakest link and in most cases the needle bearings in the lifters being the weakest link and first to go. And with the poor design this is very apparent with the bearings not getting enough oil that is needed. . In the older motors where the cam and crank were closer together this really wasn’t an issue because they received plenty of the needed oil

From what I read I think the needle bearings were changed to larger ones. This was done I think mid 2016? Do we know the percent of the similar lifter failures from 2017+ motors that got the improved needle bearings? Of course there will always be failures but I wonder if that change did actually greatly reduce the failure rate.

 

[Wild one]

Great info. To me it sounds like really a motor is only as good as it’s weakest link and in most cases the needle bearings in the lifters being the weakest link and first to go. And with the poor design this is very apparent with the bearings not getting enough oil that is needed. . In the older motors where the cam and crank were closer together this really wasn’t an issue because they received plenty of the needed oil

From what I read I think the needle bearings were changed to larger ones. This was done I think mid 2016? Do we know the percent of the similar lifter failures from 2017+ motors that got the improved needle bearings? Of course there will always be failures but I wonder if that change did actually greatly reduce the failure rate.

There's another theory floating around ,and thats lifter bounce from weak springs,contributing to cam spauling,plus if you dig deep enough,you'll find the engineers spec'd a billet cam for the redesigned block,but they were over ruled by the bean counters. Nothing is proven to be the end all factor,more like it's a combination of every theory combined. But higher idle rpm is one element that we can control,and it helps to prolong the life of the cam and lifters,by throwing more oil onto the cam.

 

[ramffml]

Agreed. I don't think its just the smaller needle bearings, more a combination of things.

I see the material differences being: the cam is higher in the block, the addition of VVT and MDS. MDS I feel is a moot point since both MDS and non MDS engines have had lifter failures.

Was the oil spec different? Same oil pump flow rate / pressure? There's so much that could be contributory.

MDS was already there in 2006 5.7 hemis. Lifter tick didn't really become a thing until the 2009 model years when they did the upgrades to VVT and eagle heads etc, but MDS was there before that.

 

[Black1500Ram]

interesting thread on the topic

*edit* the first few pages start out in discussion then it just turned to name calling... there's a few posts here and there in the later pages that are relevant...
Post #137 on page 7 has some pics of disassembled lifters**

https://www.chargerforums.com/threa...haft-professional-failure-assay.382357/page-2

 

[Wild one]

interesting thread on the topic

*edit* the first few pages start out in discussion then it just turned to name calling... there's a few posts here and there in the later pages that are relevant...
Post #137 on page 7 has some pics of disassembled lifters**

https://www.chargerforums.com/threa...haft-professional-failure-assay.382357/page-2

These 2 video's are well worth watching,as he cuts the lifters apart.

Gen 3/4 Hemi Roller Lifter comparison, from the Original to the Hellcat

Lets look at the changes!

www.youtube.com

Hellcat lifter difference HEMI Camshafts!

I noticed one small difference in the 2015 lifter revision

www.youtube.com

 

[Black1500Ram]

These 2 video's are well worth watching,as he cuts the lifters apart.

Gen 3/4 Hemi Roller Lifter comparison, from the Original to the Hellcat

Lets look at the changes!

www.youtube.com

Hellcat lifter difference HEMI Camshafts!

I noticed one small difference in the 2015 lifter revision

www.youtube.com

Thanks for the vids - i’d only seen one of those.

I’ve also seen the Johnson lifters with the oiling hole. Anyone have thoughts about running a higher pressure pump to offset the pressure drop from the lifter? Hellcat or Melling with 60psi for example.

 

[Wild one]

Thanks for the vids - i’d only seen one of those.

I’ve also seen the Johnson lifters with the oiling hole. Anyone have thoughts about running a higher pressure pump to offset the pressure drop from the lifter? Hellcat or Melling with 60psi for example.

Hunt up Jason Dauria on facebook and ask him about them.They don't have a really good rep from alot of the reports i've seen of them.The latest mopar edition lifter seems to still have the best rep

 

[Wild one]

Seeing as how you seem to be hung up on hot idle pressures,my truck with dual remote filters and the idle rpm set at 725 has a hot idling oil pressure of 51/52 psi,and my 300C with the 5.7 has a hot idling pressure of 44 psi with it's idle set at 700 rpm,and it still uses the factory oil filter set-up,both run 5W-30 Redline and Royal Purple filters,the wifes 6.4 Challenger which is still on dealer supplied 0W-40 PUP idles at 44 psi with the idle rpm set at 700 rpm. The 2 cars run right around 56 psi at 60 mph,while the truck runs right around 58/59 psi with the dual filters at 60 mph. When we did my cam swap on the truck,the original cam and lifters were in perfect shape,and they actually went into a buddies girlfriends truck and she's since put another 100,000 miles on the cam,but when they went into her 2014,we converted her to 5W-30 Redline and 20-820 filters,and turned her idle rpm up to 700 rpm. Raising the idle rpm is still the best thing you can do to prolong lifter life in a Hemi in my opinion,as you get the same hot idling pressures as the either the Hellcat pump or Melling pump give you,plus the benefit of more crank splash onto the cam lobe and roller face. Forcing more oil down the side of the lifter still doesn't put all that much more oil onto the face of the roller wheel or cam lobe,you can accomplish more with a higher idle rpm and crank splash

 

[Burn2k12Ram]

@Wild one how easy can one change the idle rpm? Do I have to take it to a tuner? And about how expensive?

 

[Wild one]

@Wild one how easy can one change the idle rpm? Do I have to take it to a tuner? And about how expensive?

On yours,all you'd need is a Diablo tuner,and you can bump the idle rpm up yourself. I used my old Diablo T1000 from my truck to turn the rpm up on our 2014 300C,so if you can find a used Diablo handheld cheap,make sure it's unlocked,and it'll work on your 2012.Your 12 is still easy to tweak,as you don't need an unlocked PCM. I'm running HP on both the truck and 2019 Challenger,so i had my original Diablo from my truck kicking around,and used it to turn the idle up on the 300C,as i wasn't really interested in tuning the 300,i just wanted to raise the idle,and open up the speed limiter on it.The 300 still uses the factory tune as i didn't touch the factory tune in it,but with the speed limiter opened up on the 300,it's good to 266 kmh / 165 mph when i tried it out,lol
Rick

 

[Burn2k12Ram]

On yours,all you'd need is a Diablo tuner,and you can bump the idle rpm up yourself. I used my old Diablo T1000 from my truck to turn the rpm up on our 2014 300C,so if you can find a used Diablo handheld cheap,make sure it's unlocked,and it'll work on your 2012.Your 12 is still easy to tweak,as you don't need an unlocked PCM. I'm running HP on both the truck and 2019 Challenger,so i had my original Diablo from my truck kicking around,and used it to turn the idle up on the 300C,as i wasn't really interested in tuning the 300,i just wanted to raise the idle,and open up the speed limiter on it.The 300 still uses the factory tune as i didn't touch the factory tune in it,but with the speed limiter opened up on the 300,it's good to 266 kmh / 165 mph when i tried it out,lol
Rick

Would this work? Sorry I’m a complete noob when it comes to this stuff. And thanks a lot for your help

NEW DIABLOSPORT INTUNE I3 PLATINUM HANDHELD TUNER,COMPATIBLE WITH 2006-2014 CHARGER,2005-2014 DURANGO,2011-2014 RAΜ 1500,2500,3500,2003-2006 CHRYS. PT CRUISER https://a.co/d/gfwtLlb

 

[Wild one]

Would this work? Sorry I’m a complete noob when it comes to this stuff. And thanks a lot for your help

NEW DIABLOSPORT INTUNE I3 PLATINUM HANDHELD TUNER,COMPATIBLE WITH 2006-2014 CHARGER,2005-2014 DURANGO,2011-2014 RAΜ 1500,2500,3500,2003-2006 CHRYS. PT CRUISER https://a.co/d/gfwtLlb

Yup it'll work.

 

[1979PowerWagon360]

Did you mean to tag me on this one? I was commenting about installing a high volume oil pump. I already have a remote filter mount and the factory oil to water sandwich cooler on my truck. I’m planning on removing the factory sandwich cooler in lieu of an external type oil cooler and run a thermostat so a higher volume pump would be beneficial.

Sorry I see that now.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Seeing as how you seem to be hung up on hot idle pressures,my truck with dual remote filters and the idle rpm set at 725 has a hot idling oil pressure of 51/52 psi,and my 300C with the 5.7 has a hot idling pressure of 44 psi with it's idle set at 700 rpm,and it still uses the factory oil filter set-up,both run 5W-30 Redline and Royal Purple filters,the wifes 6.4 Challenger which is still on dealer supplied 0W-40 PUP idles at 44 psi with the idle rpm set at 700 rpm. The 2 cars run right around 56 psi at 60 mph,while the truck runs right around 58/59 psi with the dual filters at 60 mph. When we did my cam swap on the truck,the original cam and lifters were in perfect shape,and they actually went into a buddies girlfriends truck and she's since put another 100,000 miles on the cam,but when they went into her 2014,we converted her to 5W-30 Redline and 20-820 filters,and turned her idle rpm up to 700 rpm. Raising the idle rpm is still the best thing you can do to prolong lifter life in a Hemi in my opinion,as you get the same hot idling pressures as the either the Hellcat pump or Melling pump give you,plus the benefit of more crank splash onto the cam lobe and roller face. Forcing more oil down the side of the lifter still doesn't put all that much more oil onto the face of the roller wheel or cam lobe,you can accomplish more with a higher idle rpm and crank splash

If'n a guy has already goofed with tuning and doesn't want to get back into it to bump idle speed up, do you think putting the Hellcat pump in would flow enough at factory idle to help?