Lifter Failure / Hot Oil / Better Cooling etc.

[Black1500Ram]

Hi Guys,

Been lurking for a while and now have the dreaded lifter tick.
Thanks for everyone who has replied to my prior questions. Please anyone feel free to jump in correct any misinformation I might have, suggestions etc.

MY TRUCK
2015 Ram 1500 5.7, 8HP70, 3.92 rear. Bought at 27k currently 112k

Oil related maintenance:
5w20 PUP w/ fram xg10060 filter changed every 5k during that time.
Currently Resline 5w30 w/ RP 20-820, Purolator One Air Filter changed once a year (shout out to project farm on Youtube)

Other maintenance / upgrades:
Spark plugs changed at 100k, Amsoil in trans, tcase and diffs. 89 fuel. Suspension fully rebuilt will all Moog parts, Hellwig rear sway, Freedom Offroad Rear control arms and track bar, Billstein 5100's yada yada v6 fan in addition to mechanical.

Heaviest tow - ~6000lbs camper with dist hitch... maybe 4 times / year

So now that I have 'the tick' I'm putting together this thread for what I'm going to do to fix it and hopefully compile some other preventative fixes to reduce the chance of it happening again? Its def lifter, I've had the exhaust manifold tick; this is nothing like that.

My truck is almost paid off so I don't want to have to buy another one any time soon, and would like to get to 200/300k miles. If money allowed, I would just trade in my truck for a 3500 and call it a day but it doesn't and I don’t need a 3500.

START HERE TO SKIP INTRO
Original plan was to replace lifters with the latest 2017+ (AD part number) OEM version, still MDS, new MDS cam, pushrods, head bolts. Now I’m going to non MDS after seeing the benefits in lubrication and being able to up my idle speed and some other things through tuning.

MDS all OEM parts list in Post #128, non MDS some aftermarket parts list in post #210

I also plan on installing new oem water pump, 190° t-stat, new timing chain tensioner, hellcat oil pump (stock 50 psi spring), Royal Purple 20-820 filter, remove center AGS shutters, Nearly free AGS mod, caulk transmission heater bypass, Pacbrake Oil Filter relocation kit.

I noticed while towing a quad on a small 5x8 single axle trailer (<1200lbs) through route 87 mountains in AZ, 100° ambient, I'm getting into the 250° oil temp range with cruise set at 65. Coolant is still at 210°, trans gets up to 200° sometimes. I can’t go more than 45/50 mph over the same route with the camper without the temps creeping into the 260° range.

Anything I'm missing guys? I'm furious that I have to do this but if I'm going to tear into the engine I want to give this truck the best chance to last another 150k miles.

Thanks in advance.

James

 

[Burla]

Don't fix hemi tick with an new cam and lifters until and if there is a misfire code, there is a forum of grumpy people mad because they did. It is indeed hit or miss if that hemi tick ticks after this, I lost count here. You already are trying a lubrication strategy, I'd try that first. That is my 2 cents, good luck either way.

If you are mechanically inclined, try popping off the heads and valve covers and try some things such as adjusting the last or seeing if there is play. But if it were me I'd try to redline thing first, might literally fix this.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Don't fix hemi tick with an new cam and lifters until and if there is a misfire code, there is a forum of grumpy people mad because they did. It is indeed hit or miss if that hemi tick ticks after this, I lost count here. You already are trying a lubrication strategy, I'd try that first. That is my 2 cents, good luck either way.

If you are mechanically inclined, try popping off the heads and valve covers and try some things such as adjusting the last or seeing if there is play. But if it were me I'd try to redline thing first, might literally fix this.

Hi again Burla!

Redline is next up - as mentioned in the oil thread the only reason I didn't do it this time was availability before my trip last weekend. I have to say M1 FS 0w40 / XG10575 made my tick worse; louder sounds much more metal / metal tapping.

Wouldn't a new cam and lifters along with the lubrication strategy be a sure fire preventative measure?

I am mechanically inclined - I would be doing all the work myself. I'm pretty set on doing the hellcat oil pump swap at some point, either soon or at 150k with the water pump / coolant flush.

 

[Burla]

If you want me to say something different I can, but I have been here over ten years, I have seen and heard it all, guys who fix "hemi tick" with no mis fire code or with mis fire are hit and miss if this stops hemi tick. If you have a mis fire code, you have no choice, w/o a mis fire you have a choice, just say'n. When you change lifters or a cam, you are assuming that is what causes the tick, that assumption only works part of the time. I'm just preparing you if it still ticks after you know that is a possibility.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Wouldn't a new cam and lifters along with the lubrication strategy be a sure fire preventative measure?

Yup along with MDS delete and custom tune. I did this last year and made a world of difference. Don't ever wait for your truck to throw misfire codes. You dont want metal shavings running around in your engine.

V6 Efan swap and clutch fan delete is also a great mod and with HP tuner you can set the fan temps.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Hi Burla,

I'm definitely not trying to get you to say something different, more leaning on your learned experience vs my theoretical knowledge (mechanical engineering undergrad, not that that means much lol).

I am 100% assuming that the lifters are what's ticking.
However, my goal isn't solely to get rid of the tick, more make some preventative improvements in an attempt to increase the longevity of the engine.

At this point its all discussion / research. I'm not buying anything until its been thoroughly thought through / tried redline

I sincerely appreciate the prep!

James

 

[Black1500Ram]

Yup along with MDS delete and custom tune. I did this last year and made a world of difference. Don't ever wait for your truck to throw misfire codes. You dont want metal shavings running around in your engine.

V6 Efan swap and clutch fan delete is also a great mod and with HP tuner you can set the fan temps.

I have the v6 efan but left the mechanical fan in also. preventative is what I’m thinking and unfortunately I can’t really check if the cam is wearing without taking the heads off.

I’m doing a UOA, just waiting for the kit to come in.

Best case I put new 2017+ lifters and don’t need a cam, at least I’ll have the new lifters and upgraded oil pump along with some routine maintenance (water pump).

 

[crazykid1994]

I have the v6 efan but left the mechanical fan in also. preventative is what I’m thinking and unfortunately I can’t really check if the cam is wearing without taking g the heads off.

I’m doing a UOA, just waiting for the kit to come in.

Best case I put new 2017+ lifters and don’t need a cam, at least I’ll have the new lifters and upgraded oil pump along with some routine maintenance (water pump).

May as well remove the mechanical fan since it’s not really doing anything but causing parasitic drag at this point. Once you remove the shroud and install the v6 fan the mechanical fan is basically useless. Also if the lifters are failing the cam is failing with it. Can try adding in lubeguard into your oil now and see if it helps. It’s absolutely not the exhaust leaking?

 

[Burla]

I have the v6 efan but left the mechanical fan in also. preventative is what I’m thinking and unfortunately I can’t really check if the cam is wearing without taking g the heads off.

I’m doing a UOA, just waiting for the kit to come in.

Best case I put new 2017+ lifters and don’t need a cam, at least I’ll have the new lifters and upgraded oil pump along with some routine maintenance (water pump).

It is a quagmire, it's a riddle wrapped in mystery inside an enigma. All I got to say is take in all of the info and make a decision and own it. There is no right answer here, it isn't like well the battery is dead and I'll fix it and all my issues will be solved. Hemi tick isn't a battery, to know if changing lifters and cam would fix hemi tick, you would have to know why your hemi is ticking. I felt real bad a couple months ago when I suggested a guy not fix hemi tick with a cam job and he did it anyway, and he still had hemi tick over 6 grand later. I just feel bad for the dude, so I just hand out information, could be waiting will cause a cam wipe, who knows. But then there are many examples of cam job fixing hemi tick, so who knows. Do a forum search, still ticking after new cam and lifters and read. New cam and lifters you want a regular oil and then if you want switch to redline.

 

[Black1500Ram]

May as well remove the mechanical fan since it’s not really doing anything but causing parasitic drag at this point. Once you remove the shroud and install the v6 fan the mechanical fan is basically useless. Also if the lifters are failing the cam is failing with it. Can try adding in lubeguard into your oil now and see if it helps. It’s absolutely not the exhaust leaking?

I can say this isn't correct from trial and error. With just the untuned efan, no mechanical, my coolant temps ran about 10 degrees hotter than stock.

With both the efan and mechanical, my coolant runs about 5 degrees cooler that stock when towing.

 

[Burla]

Think about this, what exactly ON a cam or lifters could possibly cause a tick? Literally the only moving part ON either item is the roller and needle bearings, other then those it is solid metal. The part moves yes, but not on itself, only the rollers. We know as a fact when the roller and needle bearing fail because it is a specific type of damage, and this happens to be in very few cam wipes, most are smoothed over time like below. You can see when needle bearings fail because the posts of the lifter pit the cam lob, so changing lifters and cam in that case would likely work. But, even in those cases we don't know if something causes the rollers to collapse or if they just fail. Either is possible, it is possible there is restriction in the lifter bore causing extra pressure on the rollers, and some rollers just fail, but again that is a small percent as you can easily search hemi cam lob damage for yourself, very few are pitted as opposed to smoothed. So if the lifters are solid and the cam is solid and it turns out the needle bearings are fine, why do people think that changing parts will fix hemi tick? What exactly about new parts stop tick over the old parts again if it isnt the needle bearing.

By the way, they tried fixing needle bearings in 2016 with beefy bearings, yup we still have hemi tick after. When the roller fails the damage tends to be on the wide where the post hits the lob, not in the middle.

 

[Black1500Ram]

It is a quagmire, it's a riddle wrapped in mystery inside an enigma. All I got to say is take in all of the info and make a decision and own it. There is no right answer here, it isn't like well the battery is dead and I'll fix it and all my issues will be solved. Hemi tick isn't a battery, to know if changing lifters and cam would fix hemi tick, you would have to know why your hemi is ticking. I felt real bad a couple months ago when I suggested a guy not fix hemi tick with a cam job and he did it anyway, and he still had hemi tick over 6 grand later. I just feel bad for the dude, so I just hand out information, could be waiting will cause a cam wipe, who knows. But then there are many examples of cam job fixing hemi tick, so who knows. Do a forum search, still ticking after new cam and lifters and read. New cam and lifters you want a regular oil and then if you want switch to redline.

I very much appreciate and respect this.
I never take any advice blindly, more information to consider when making my own decision like you said.

Your info is invaluable so thank you again.

 

[Burn2k12Ram]

I know me personally if it were to happen to me. I would try the redline strategy first with the RP 20-820. If that did not fix it after 1000 miles I would then do the lifter/cam swap and most definitely change out the stock low oil flowing oil pump with a hellcat. Even if that is more for a piece of mind and helps me sleep at night better flowing oil is a good thing. And then stay with PUP 5w30(adding lubegard) with RP 20-820 filter every oil change.

 

[Black1500Ram]

I know me personally if it were to happen to me. I would try the redline strategy first with the RP 20-820. If that did not fix it after 1000 miles I would then do the lifter/cam swap and most definitely change out the stock low oil flowing oil pump with a hellcat. Even if that is more for a piece of mind and helps me sleep at night better flowing oil is a good thing. And then stay with PUP 5w30(adding lubegard) with RP 20-820 filter every oil change.

Thisi is essentially what i plan to do but with redline

 

[crazykid1994]

I can say this isn't correct from trial and error. Without the mechanical fan my coolant temps ran about 10 degrees hotter than stock with just the untuned efan.

With both the efan and mechanical, my coolant runs about 5-7 degrees cooler when towing.

Interesting. My coolant with my Efan and 190 tstat remains around 194° under most circumstances. But i run a standalone variable speed controller so the temps don’t fluctuate so much. I have my controller set higher currently then prior because it’s so hot out that even on stock control the fan basically wouldn’t shut off very much with highway driving. I’m surprised running the stock fan unshrouded actually does much of anything since it’s not directly pulling air through the radiator. Maybe because it’s forcing more air across the engine block. I debated on reinstalling the stock mechanical Fan and shroud but didn’t want to purchase a whole new assembly. I saved mine for a year then got rid of it. Hard resentment there. Sometimes I wish I hadn’t swapped to the v6 fan. Also though. Untuned with e fan doesn’t do squat since the truck wants to run at 220°. And tuning for the efan is always 5-15° above tstat temp to prevent the fan from constantly running. The newer trucks use electric only with pwm control to regulate fan speed based on engine load. My controller I run uses radiator outlet temp to control fan speed which is a similar function to engine load. I could set my temps slightly lower and my truck would stay 192° constantly no matter what.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Untuned with e fan doesn’t do squat since the truck wants to run at 220°. And tuning for the efan is always 5-15° above tstat temp to prevent the fan from constantly running. The newer trucks use electric only with pwm control to regulate fan speed based on engine load. My controller I run uses radiator outlet temp to control fan speed which is a similar function to engine load. I could set my temps slightly lower and my truck would stay 192° constantly no matter what.

Yeah I found that out the hard way.

I still have the stock 208 tstat and without a tuner, I don't believe I can even control the fans to come on lower, so seems like a waste to put in a 195 etc.

And I don't want to pay $*** or whatever it is for HPtuner plus tune etc. for a non performance vehicle.

 

[crazykid1994]

Yeah I found that out the hard way.

I still have the stock 208 tstat and without a tuner, I don't believe I can even control the fans to come on lower, so seems like a waste to put in a 195 etc.

And I don't want to pay $*** or whatever it is for HPtuner plus tune etc. for a non performance vehicle.

My controller I’m running I ran pre tune with a 190 tstat with no issues. No tune requires. But no benefits to it honestly unless you are tuning for performance. I actually ran it with a 180° tstat but didn’t like it that cold since I’m not going full blown performance.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Think about this, what exactly ON a cam or lifters could possibly cause a tick? Literally the only moving part ON either item is the roller and needle bearings, other then those it is solid metal. The part moves yes, but not on itself, only the rollers. We know as a fact when the roller and needle bearing fail because it is a specific type of damage, and this happens to be in very few cam wipes, most are smoothed over time like below. You can see when needle bearings fail because the posts of the lifter pit the cam lob, so changing lifters and cam in that case would likely work. But, even in those cases we don't know if something causes the rollers to collapse or if they just fail. Either is possible, it is possible there is restriction in the lifter bore causing extra pressure on the rollers, and some rollers just fail, but again that is a small percent as you can easily search hemi cam lob damage for yourself, very few are pitted as opposed to smoothed. So if the lifters are solid and the cam is solid and it turns out the needle bearings are fine, why do people think that changing parts will fix hemi tick? What exactly about new parts stop tick over the old parts again if it isnt the needle bearing.

By the way, they tried fixing needle bearings in 2016 with beefy bearings, yup we still have hemi tick after. When the roller fails the damage tends to be on the wide where the post hits the lob, not in the middle.

View attachment 497393

View attachment 497394

Oh, dat's beautiful!

What's wrong with spalled cam(s)?

Prevents valve float.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Think about this, what exactly ON a cam or lifters could possibly cause a tick? Literally the only moving part ON either item is the roller and needle bearings, other then those it is solid metal. The part moves yes, but not on itself, only the rollers. We know as a fact when the roller and needle bearing fail because it is a specific type of damage, and this happens to be in very few cam wipes, most are smoothed over time like below. You can see when needle bearings fail because the posts of the lifter pit the cam lob, so changing lifters and cam in that case would likely work. But, even in those cases we don't know if something causes the rollers to collapse or if they just fail. Either is possible, it is possible there is restriction in the lifter bore causing extra pressure on the rollers, and some rollers just fail, but again that is a small percent as you can easily search hemi cam lob damage for yourself, very few are pitted as opposed to smoothed. So if the lifters are solid and the cam is solid and it turns out the needle bearings are fine, why do people think that changing parts will fix hemi tick? What exactly about new parts stop tick over the old parts again if it isnt the needle bearing.

By the way, they tried fixing needle bearings in 2016 with beefy bearings, yup we still have hemi tick after. When the roller fails the damage tends to be on the wide where the post hits the lob, not in the middle.

View attachment 497393

View attachment 497394

I agree with pretty much everything here. I realize I'm beating the dead horse so don't feel the need to respond.

My thoughts are:

- Isn't cam pitting typically a form of chemical reaction? Corrosion, or acidity. Or undersprung valve spring? I've seen where the roller is so worn that it's basically level with the outside of the lifter like the left one below

- I feel ticking is a lash / clearances issue - again assuming that the ticking is coming somewhere from the cam, lifter, pushrod, rocker arm section of the valvetrain. (I could be totally wrong, but what else is rotating to cause an rpm dependent tapping?)
Found these two videos on ramforumz ( i see hemimann on there too) adding just cause, i'm sure people have seen them. Learning as i go here.


Lifter Comparison (Cut open)
Lifter Galley

 

[Burla]

They have pics rolling around, in 2016 the "needles" in the needle bearings are like twice as round as early version. This was an attempt at fixing hemi tick for sure, it was just never gonna work for most of hemi tick. That pic is good, you can see how the posts of the rollers end up causing the pits. It is mechanical for sure, not chemical. Those posts are never meant to touch the cam lob. There are also metallurgy reports rolling around the cam lobs are otherwise perfect.

Could be lash for sure, the weakness in ram forum's work has been lack of dyi mechanical fixes.