Lifter Failure / Hot Oil / Better Cooling etc.

[Black1500Ram]

Not sure what you're asking here as the camshaft lobe and bottom of lifter wheel sit out in the open basically in the crankcase,they aren't enclosed by the block or the heads. The cam journals are part of the block,but not the cam lobes or bottom of the lifter.If you have the cam and lifters out,you can look through the bottom of the block right to the bottom of the heads by looking through the lifter holes.

Yeah I understand that. I was trying to understand where the main oil galley's were in the short block.

I saw a bunch of different car forums agree with your assessment; oil flows up through the pushrods as a function of lifter piddle! Thanks for bearing with me while I researched / asked more questions.

For anyone else reading, this video helped me understand the MDS and main oil galley systems better. Understanding MDS and Lifter Oiling

He came to a great conclusion about switching cams and lifters to non mds but then keeping the MDS solenoid and tuning to have MDS solenoids open all the time to have better oiling to all lifters. Seems VERY intriguing -

Is there really a huge difference in MPG with MDS? I feel like my truck is hardly ever in 4cyl mode any way.

 

[Wild one]

Yeah I understand that.

I saw a bunch of different car forums agree with your assessment; oil flows up through the pushrods as a function of lifter piddle! Thanks for bearing with me while I researched / asked more questions.

For anyone else reading, this video helped me understand the MDS and main oil galley systems better. Understanding MDS and Lifter Oiling

He came to a great conclusion about switching cams and lifters to non mds but then keeping the MDS solenoid and tuning to have MDS solenoids open all the time to have better oiling to all lifters. Seems VERY intriguing.

I think his conclusion is to use the factory block off plugs,if you watch till the very end.It's my understanding the plugs accomplish virtually the same thing as having the mds engaged full time. I've been running Stanke's billet mds plugs for several years,but if i was doing it again,i'd go for the cheaper factory plastic block off plugs,as the stanke's are gold plated in comparision,lol

 

[crazykid1994]

Yeah I understand that.

I saw a bunch of different car forums agree with your assessment; oil flows up through the pushrods as a function of lifter piddle! Thanks for bearing with me while I researched / asked more questions.

This video helped me understand the MDS and main oil galley systems better.
Understanding MDS and Lifter Oiling

He came to a great conclusion about switching cams and lifters to non mds but then keeping the MDS solenoid and tuning to have MDS solenoids open all the time to have better oiling to all lifters. Seems VERY intriguing.

Why wouldn’t they just install the mds plugs. They allow oil flow full time instead of relying on the mds solenoid… odd. Installing the plugs removed any restriction in oil flow to the lifters

 

[Black1500Ram]

I think his conclusion is to use the factory block off plugs,if you watch till the very end.It's my understanding the plugs accomplish virtually the same thing as having the mds engaged full time. I've been running Stanke's billet mds plugs for several years,but if i was doing it again,i'd go for the cheaper factory plastic block off plugs,as the stanke's are gold plated in comparision,lol

Edit**
Preface - I realize this dive into understanding lifter oiling still doesn't address the fact that 90% of engines don't have lifter failures.


Just re-watched the video (to the very end ) and I agree with you that the block off plates still allow oil flow between the bottom galley (yellow arrow) to the upper galley (blue arrow) as they are the same depth / diameter as the black portion of the mds solenoid, and has the same 2 o-rings.






Do you guys know where this upper most hole leads to and does the solenoid allow oil flow there when activated (out through the side of the black section)? The plug looks like it may block this orifice?

 

[1979PowerWagon360]

1700$ for lifters ? I hope they are gold plated

Are you talking for lifters, cam and labor? If so, that's reasonable IMO because just the labor alone with pulling the heads is extensive.

 

[Black1500Ram]

Are you talking for lifters, cam and labor? If so, that's reasonable IMO because just the labor alone with pulling the heads is extensive.

No I'm referring to just parts necessary to swap the cam & all lifters plus a bunch of maintenance stuff , see post 128

 

[Black1500Ram]

Edit**
Preface - I realize this dive into understanding lifter oiling still doesn't address the fact that 90% of engines don't have lifter failures.

In thinking about what could be contributing factors (other than design) what comes to mind since there's plenty of VVT MDS trucks with no issues running 5w20 on 7-10k OCI's

Heat? Oil selection? Oil Change Interval? Load? Idle Time?

My truck has had pup 5w20 for the high majority of its life and change oil every 5k, I do live in AZ (HOT), I have rarely towed, 89 fuel, lower idle time (16% of total).

 

[Wild one]

Edit**
Preface - I realize this dive into understanding lifter oiling still doesn't address the fact that 90% of engines don't have lifter failures.


Just re-watched the video (to the very end ) and I agree with you that the block off plates still allow oil flow between the bottom galley (yellow arrow) to the upper galley (blue arrow) as they are the same depth / diameter as the black portion of the mds solenoid, and has the same 2 o-rings.

View attachment 501143


View attachment 501141View attachment 501142

Do you guys know where this upper most hole leads to and does the solenoid allow oil flow there when activated (out through the side of the black section)? The plug looks like it may block this orifice?

View attachment 501144

I think it's a bypass hole to allow excessive pressure to bleed off when mds is engaged,but don't quote me on that one though.

 

[Black1500Ram]

@Wild one - if I can swing it I think I'll try to go the MDS delete route - the parts seem to be about $500 cheaper which will help offset the cost of tuning. I just KNOW if I go this route I'll end up with a 6.4 intake and ARH catless longtubes being added to the list lol.

MMX MDS Delete

 

[Wild one]

@Wild one - if I can swing it I think I'll try to go the MDS delete route - the parts seem to be about $500 cheaper which will help offset the cost of tuning. I just KNOW if I go this route I'll end up with a 6.4 intake and ARH catless longtubes being added to the list lol.

MMX MDS Delete

If you haven't bought from MMX yet,you can also check out Ryan Hogans /Flying Ryan Perfromance (FRP) line of cam kits,as his cams have a pretty decent rep. Most of the Hemi cams are ground by Comp Cams or Texas Speed to specific specs for each supplier,just don't use Comps lifters or Texas Speeds lifters,as neither have the best of reps.Matt Fikac/Moes also has a line of cams,but Matts cams haven't been updated in several years,so there's better cams available from both MMX and FRP these days.

FRP VVT Hemi Camshafts/Camshaft Kits

You can hear most of these cams on our Youtube Channel Cam Only Custom ground Texas Speed camshafts. These cams are the result of over 15 years of R&D courtesy of Steve Frank, of Frank Racing Inc. FRP is the sole distributor of these custom grinds listed here. All cams (except NSR as listed)...

frptuning.com

 

[Black1500Ram]

I wasn't thinking of a performance cam; I'm focused on keeping my truck the best tow vehicle it can be. Plus $800 vs $285.

 

[crazykid1994]

If you haven't bought from MMX yet,you can also check out Ryan Hogans /Flying Ryan Perfromance (FRP) line of cam kits,as his cams have a pretty decent rep. Most of the Hemi cams are ground by Comp Cams or Texas Speed to specific specs for each supplier,just don't use Comps lifters or Texas Speeds lifters,as neither have the best of reps.Matt Fikac/Moes also has a line of cams,but Matts cams haven't been updated in several years,so there's better cams available from both MMX and FRP these days.

FRP VVT Hemi Camshafts/Camshaft Kits

You can hear most of these cams on our Youtube Channel Cam Only Custom ground Texas Speed camshafts. These cams are the result of over 15 years of R&D courtesy of Steve Frank, of Frank Racing Inc. FRP is the sole distributor of these custom grinds listed here. All cams (except NSR as listed)...

frptuning.com

I wasn't thinking of a performance cam; I'm focused on keeping my truck the best tow vehicle it can be. Plus $800 vs $285.

I know it’s more money but frp has great towing cams. That’s why I’m going to go that route. Plus he sends out free tuning updates on his box tunes unlike some of the other name tuners. I think he has a stock spring cam too

 

[Black1500Ram]

What are the thoughts on going to the OEM 6.4 HD cam (with mopar performance springs) vs the oem 5.7 (non MDS) with towing in mind (2-4k rpm)?

 

[Wild one]

What are the thoughts on going to the OEM 6.4 HD cam (with mopar performance springs) vs the oem 5.7 (non MDS) with towing in mind (2-4k rpm)?

I didn't think they made a non-mds 6.4 HD cam,if they do it's probably not a bad upgrade,but as far as i know i thought the only non-mds 6.4 cam was for the 6 speed Challengers. The 5.7 and 6.4 manual transmission Challengers are both non-mds cams

 

[Black1500Ram]

I didn't think they made a non-mds 6.4 HD cam,if they do it's probably not a bad upgrade,but as far as i know i thought the only non-mds 6.4 cam was for the 6 speed Challengers. The 5.7 and 6.4 manual transmission Challengers are both non-mds cams

Yup i misread, the HD cam is a MDS cam.

Burner71 listed the specs in another thread here - I PM'd him about his experience.

215/221 @ .050"
.353"/.333" lobe lift
.574"/.541" valve lift
121 LSA
108 ICL

Adding up all the parts with the 6.4 cam, non mds lifters, mopar performance springs, not getting cheap shorty headers; the mds delete route comes out to be $2930 ish.

 

[crazykid1994]

Yup i misread, the HD cam is a MDS cam.

Burner71 listed the specs in another thread here - I PM'd him about his experience.

215/221 @ .050"
.353"/.333" lobe lift
.574"/.541" valve lift
121 LSA
108 ICL

Adding up all the parts with the 6.4 cam, non mds lifters, mopar performance springs, not getting cheap shorty headers; the mds delete route comes out to be $3182 ish.

At that point though wouldn’t you need a tune to run anything other than a 5.7 non mds cam?

 

[Black1500Ram]

At that point though wouldn’t you need a tune to run anything other than a 5.7 non mds cam?

Yes...

If I were to go to a non MDS 5.7 cam only, wouldn't I still need to unlock my PCM and pay for hardware to at least turn off MDS? Diablo Pulsar ($622)?? @HEMIMANN I just realized this is the tuner you have.. are you able to adjust fan temp also? This might be the way to go for me with the 5.7 non mds cam!!!!

The cost of custom tuning and pcm unlocking ($1300) is what kills most of these ideas for me.

 

[crazykid1994]

Yes...

If I were to go to a non MDS 5.7 cam only, wouldn't I still need to unlock my PCM and pay for hardware to at least turn off MDS? Diablo Pulsar ($622)?? @HEMIMANN I just realized this is the tuner you have.. are you able to adjust fan temp also? This might be the way to go for me with the 5.7 non mds cam!!!!

The cost of custom tuning and pcm unlocking ($1300) is what kills most of these ideas for me.

The pulsar doesn’t actually disable mds and is not a “tuner”. It’s a piggyback programmer but does not accept custom tuning. And yes you would still need an unlocked pcm and tuning device to actually delete mds

 

[Black1500Ram]

The pulsar doesn’t actually disable mds and is not a “tuner”. It’s a piggyback programmer but does not accept custom tuning. And yes you would still need an unlocked pcm and tuning device to actually delete mds

I thought this wasn’t the case from what I read… hmm

I don’t really care about tuning per say. My main concerns are longevity, fuel economy, usable towing power in that order.

If I can accomplish all 3 great if not I’ll settle for the first 2. I just wish there was a cheap way to disable MDS.

I wonder if I ship my pcm out to a tuner to be unlocked they would disable mds and set my fan speed to 190° for me for little charge if that’s even possible without a tuner. I’d pay $250+ for that.

 

[Wild one]

I thought this wasn’t the case from what I read… hmm

I don’t really care about tuning per say. My main concerns are longevity, fuel economy, usable towing power in that order.

If I can accomplish all 3 great if not I’ll settle for the first 2. I just wish there was a cheap way to disable MDS.

I wonder if I ship my pcm out to a tuner to be unlocked they would disable mds and set my fan speed to 190° for me for little charge if that’s even possible without a tuner. I’d pay $250+ for that.

Hunt up Matt Brown on Facebook,he was asking if anybody was interested in an unlocked PCM that he'd install a very mild tune on.I think he had some feed back on the idea,so he's probably your best option.He's not on here,so you'll have to find him on High Performance Rams or Tuned Rams on facebook.

Here's what he was saying.

Finally.
I’ve finally moved the PCM unlock equipment to the current shop.
So, to do something nice, and give back to the mopar community I’m going to do a drawing for a free PCM unlock (just cover shipping both ways)
If the winner would like, for an additional $250 we can load a base PCM tune for stock through bolt on vehicles.
This is for the unlock of the vehicles original PCM (for an additional cost we can update the VIN on a compatible PCM)
This is for 2015 and newer vehicles.
I will leave this going until 12:00am Monday morning if it doesn’t fi up sooner.
Comment the number you wish I will put 50 spots.
1 spot per person
Make your own comment for your number not as a response to someone else’s comment.
I am busy in the shop so bear with me as far as updating the list.
*unlock for HPtuners software. This should not matter for 2015-2017 but does for 2018+

Demon Motorsports | Baton Rouge LA

Demon Motorsports, Baton Rouge, Louisiana. 8,910 likes · 446 talking about this · 8 were here. Mopar Performance shop

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