Def misery with ethical dilemma

[Burla]

reminds me of the good ol days driving for Rock island, I swear I could smell that video.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Smells of pre-epa

 

[Ydbody]

You bring up a good point Dilligaf. Finding an old semi truck or medium duty diesel pre epa bs is looking better and better. I don't need a 120k pickup truck price to pull 40k when I can spend 15k on a used over the road to easily pull 8 to 12k campers and still get 8 to 9 mpg (or better) and last for a million miles more with every shop glad to not work on emissions issues. My Dad has a retired 2000 379 peterbilt with a c12 caterpillar that should be used for light duty things because it does it so easy. That actually seems more economical than def and dpf and egr coolers.
Sometimes I wonder if we indeed are too stupid to see we are harming ourselves by thinking we are doing good. Epa blinders are real.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Ive been wanting a Diesel truck for ages, And now that I can afford one. I rather build my own with old proven diffs , T-case and engines.

Im pretty sure ill hit 30K building my 1961 IHC but everything will be rebuilt and last me until I push daises, I cant say that about anything they are building now. Well the new 2025 Cummins looks a heck of a lot better designed. and they went back to a cast Iron head and glow plugs re-inventing the Wheel back to the 1970's... lol.

 

[nlambert182]

Gotta wonder…. With all the clever people who make Tuners… Why hasn’t someone created a tune that gets rid of the “limp” mode?

They do.

It just requires removing the stuff that causes the limp mode. Trying to just turn it off while a component is actually failing could do mechanical damage. You either HAVE to fix it, or remove it.

 

[KerryinTN]

Nothing unethical about it. If anything, the unethical part is on the nimrods in gov’t that mandated the need for the truck co’s to design this crap.

If you trade in to a dealer, you lose, so don’t. Just learn how to do a private sale, and then you don’t need to worry about what any dealer thinks or says.

Then delete and enjoy your truck how it was meant to be - guilt free.

 

[Quadrophenia]

Typical government non thinking. Emissions system to be better for the environment. Perfect example: yesterday I left the house for exactly 1 reason, to drive the truck until a regen completed. It started literally as I pulled into the driveway the day before, but wasn't a "don't turn off" one. Drove for 45 minutes, basically burning 3 gallons of diesel for absolutely nothing. Now THAT is pollution for no purpose!

I just don't understand how anyone making these rules can possibly be this stupid.

 

[man n black]

I know nothing about North Dakota, but down in the Southeast area many dealers don't care whether or not a truck is deleted. They're on the lot all the time.

To answer whether or not you should depends on how well you stomach risk. That's a personal question. I will lay out the pros and cons and then you need to decide for yourself.


Pros:
It can be much more economical both in terms of cost and downtime than repairing the emissions system depending upon what failed.
It removes the risk of an emissions failure at an inopportune time.
It significantly improves fuel economy with a proper tune.

Cons:
It is illegal in all 50 states. If your state are sticklers on deletes, you could be faced with some hefty fines and maybe more.
It can cause catastrophic failures of the engine and/or transmission if you get an itchy finger and try to increase power. Stock HP level tune is all that a 68RFE transmission can take and remain reliable.

I agree with everything said here EXCEPT that last sentence. The 68RFE needs some minor electronic tuning to be reliable on a tuned truck.

The reason it fails if not also tuned is that the transmission ecu is programmed from the factory to shift the truck quickly into higher gears (5 and 6) for fuel mileage concerns and the much higher torque of a tuned 6.7 craps out the converter and clutches bc the converter doesn't get locked. Find a good tuner and you should be gtg.

I've towed all over the country and Canada on 37s with 3.27 geared and tuned 2013 6.7 - 68RFE combo with absolutely ZERO mechanical failure issues. Mostly in the high steep mountians to boot.

To the OP: If you live in a state where you can delete...for reliability you should delete the emmisions systems and keep the parts (for resale). Unless of course you don't like the ethical dilemma part.

 

[Burla]

You can address the weaknesses of the rfe, learn those here..

Product Overview: ATS 68RFE Valve Body and ATS Co-Pilot

Clint Cannon, President of ATS, describes the inherent weaknesses of the 68RFE (545RFE, too) valve body. This is a comprehensive overview of the numerous pro...

youtu.be

 

[06 Dodge]

Nothing unethical about it. If anything, the unethical part is on the nimrods in gov’t that mandated the need for the truck co’s to design this crap.

If you trade in to a dealer, you lose, so don’t. Just learn how to do a private sale, and then you don’t need to worry about what any dealer thinks or says.

Then delete and enjoy your truck how it was meant to be - guilt free.

Ya only lose if you failed to keep the part so that they could be reinstalled before its put up for sale

 

[nlambert182]

I agree with everything said here EXCEPT that last sentence. The 68RFE needs some minor electronic tuning to be reliable on a tuned truck.

The reason it fails if not also tuned is that the transmission ecu is programmed from the factory to shift the truck quickly into higher gears (5 and 6) for fuel mileage concerns and the much higher torque of a tuned 6.7 craps out the converter and clutches bc the converter doesn't get locked. Find a good tuner and you should be gtg.

I've towed all over the country and Canada on 37s with 3.27 geared and tuned 2013 6.7 - 68RFE combo with absolutely ZERO mechanical failure issues. Mostly in the high steep mountians to boot.

To the OP: If you live in a state where you can delete...for reliability you should delete the emmisions systems and keep the parts (for resale). Unless of course you don't like the ethical dilemma part.

I would alter that to say that trans tuning is needed on a tuned truck that has been turned up. If the HP/TQ numbers stay the same, there's no reason to tune the transmission. I always run stock tunes and have never had an issue with the 68. That said... many can't keep their fingers off the buttons and in those cases, it absolutely needs to be tuned. Even then, without some mechanical upgrades it's still not going to be as reliable.

 

[Dusty]

FWIW, I have a friend in the transmission repair business and he tells me that the most failures he sees on a 68RFE are torque converters, and the only "upgrade" part he typically installs on a 68RFE unless requested otherwise.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 129010 miles.

 

[nlambert182]

FWIW, I have a friend in the transmission repair business and he tells me that the most failures he sees on a 68RFE are torque converters, and the only "upgrade" part he typically installs on a 68RFE unless requested otherwise.

Regards,
Dusty
2019 Ram 1500 Billet Silver Laramie Quad Cab 2WD, 5.7 Hemi, 8HP75, 3.21 axle, 33-gallon fuel tank, 18” wheels. Build Date: 3 June 2018. Now at 129010 miles.

Yep... those and valve bodies.... the problem is that folks tune them to increase the line pressure to handle the additional horsepower and torque and firm up the shifts. What they fail to realize is that the 68RFE is built to handle only what it leaves the factory with and even then it kinda cheats to do it. To handle the HP/TQ, it uses fluid coupling where it slowly brings in the power to the trans so as not to shock it and blow it apart. It literally slips between gears. Tuning it takes a lot of that out and introduces more power at once than the transmission was designed for, thus causing it to fail.

If you leave it alone and keep the numbers where they were from the factory, it is a solid transmission. But alas, people don't tend to understand the components before they crank it up, because DIESEL!... and before long.... BOOM. Then they blame it on the tune. The tuner only does what you tell it to.

 

[fcr]

Sell it and get a hemi 6.4 problem is solved. It is sick what they put on the cummins, EGR cooler, CATS, DEF, DPF and a turbo that forces air through it all. No Turbo, EGR cooler, DEF or DPF sign me up. We may be running out of time, future gas 2500's are gonna suck even worse until something gives.

Agree 100% after a multitude of amazing diesel problems, 4 trips to the dealer, rentals, weeks out of service.
In the real cold of the north the problems are amplified. Been there…along with many many others

If you can’t delete, dump it for a gasser and simplify your life. Not sure how old you are, but I gotta pee long before I run outta range

If the emissions garbage goes away in the future I’ll likely get back on the diesel train fwiw. Good luck OP

 

[mikeru]

Nothing unethical about it. If anything, the unethical part is on the nimrods in gov’t that mandated the need for the truck co’s to design this crap.

If you trade in to a dealer, you lose, so don’t. Just learn how to do a private sale, and then you don’t need to worry about what any dealer thinks or says.

Then delete and enjoy your truck how it was meant to be - guilt free.

Private sales are easy when you live where there are lots of potential buyers. I live in a small farming town with 2000 people. Very small market. I’ve sold lots of vehicles and often struggle with that. Most people from the larger population towns don’t want to drive the 20 to 60 miles to come look at my vehicle. Most of them want to either meet halfway or have me bring it to them. Then I need to take two vehicles and drag someone along with me. And if they end up not buying we’re driving both vehicles back. It’s just not worth the hassle to be honest. Now I just trade them in. My situation will soon change once I move to Florida though lol.

Another argument for trading it in only applies to states that apply sales tax from your trade to your new vehicle. I’ve saved thousands in sales tax that way. My state has an 8% sales tax which adds up quickly on a $75k truck.

 

[Ydbody]

The three things that will keep me in a diesel for towing:

Mileage, it is getting much closer to even, but still like the extra mileage afforded by the diesel, even if it is offset by the higher price per gallon.

Power. Just unbelievable sometimes how good and reliable the power is. Hills more or less disappear.

Exhaust brake. Nothing like it on a gasser. The gassers shifting strategy are a huge help and if the truck is same size and relative weight it will pull very nicely. The diesels are better on a long downhill.

Things that will make me sell for a gasser:

5mph limp mode for an emissions anomaly. First time this truck gets towed for this stupidity it may be gone for good.

Convenience. All the parts are easier to get and cheaper. I know there are some exceptions. But simplicity rules when towing.

My initial technical question still is unanswered.
Can you set the mileage countdown by erasing codes? Is that a thing? Still makes me angry whether or not that is true. But that is what is on my work order.

 

[Ratman6161]

I don't actually know anything about this issue. But I did Google "what is the freezing temperature of DEF". Google says its 12F. I lived in Grand Forks from 87 to 91 and remember plenty of -30 days. I'm in MN now, but we have plenty of below 0 F days too. Could this just be the DEF frozen? Not just in the tank but in the ,Ines going out of the tank?

 

[nlambert182]

The three things that will keep me in a diesel for towing:

Mileage, it is getting much closer to even, but still like the extra mileage afforded by the diesel, even if it is offset by the higher price per gallon.

Power. Just unbelievable sometimes how good and reliable the power is. Hills more or less disappear.

Exhaust brake. Nothing like it on a gasser. The gassers shifting strategy are a huge help and if the truck is same size and relative weight it will pull very nicely. The diesels are better on a long downhill.

Things that will make me sell for a gasser:

5mph limp mode for an emissions anomaly. First time this truck gets towed for this stupidity it may be gone for good.

Convenience. All the parts are easier to get and cheaper. I know there are some exceptions. But simplicity rules when towing.

My initial technical question still is unanswered.
Can you set the mileage countdown by erasing codes? Is that a thing? Still makes me angry whether or not that is true. But that is what is on my work order.

Agreed on most of what you said. But understand... it's not IF something in the system will fail, but WHEN. The when is heavily dependent upon how you use the truck normally. Always good to know that before ever buying one. I chalk it up as the cost of ownership (unfortunately).

To answer your question... no. Once a code has been set there is a problem. Even if you erase the code it will pop back up and the countdown will carry on.

 

[Ydbody]

I am not trying to argue here.
This is a bigger issue than my slight inconvenience so far.
My understanding from my time at a car repair shop is that once the conditions for warning have gone away, then should the warning continue? Usually after 3 drive cycles in a vehicle with a check engine light (mine didn't have that, never once) if the conditions for the light have gone away, then it will stop illuminating and you may proceed to drive until it comes back or it may never come back.
Since this is an emissions system in an over regulated truck, my opinion, is it possible when the truck sees 0 conditions to give a warning or countdown it will continue to do so no matter what? So I need a factory level scan tool to check for conditions? And then only that tool can give the all clear to proceed without limp mode?
Even if I disagree with how they run this system I need to know if that is going to happen no matter what I do. And the fact that it did not do this the previous episode makes me even more confused. There are plenty of things I wouldn't want to fix on this truck. But not having the ability to fix it myself makes me uneasy. I guess I know how the John Deere ag customers felt. Very helpless.

 

[nlambert182]

Yes, eventually it's going to happen no matter what you do, sans deleting it. It's just the nature of the beast. As for right now... if it clears itself and the doesn't reappear, then the countdown should stop until/unless it comes back. The countdown is literally just a programmed feature in the ECM to force you to the dealership to get it corrected to prevent a failed component from potentially causing any future damage.

There is no catastrophic problem (such as an engine failure) when it reaches zero. But if there is still a problem, you aren't going to override that with any scan tool. All that will happen is that you may clear it temporarily and you may pause the countdown, but as soon as the code reappears, the countdown starts back up.

It's still not an overly complicated system even with the nanny equipment on it. If you learn how it works and learn to work on it things feel much less complicated. By and large, these are reliable trucks.

Sometimes there are little quirky things, but it's easier to learn what the quirks are and fix them and roll on.

There isn't a manufacturer out there who doesn't have their own quirks and emissions problems plague every modern diesel. It just is what it is.

Even though swapping to a gasser has it's benefits, it also has drawbacks too. A 6.4 can still suffer from a lifter/cam failure. They can also be more difficult to maneuver in and out of fuel stops lugging a trailer behind. Then there's the fuel economy issue, especially when towing. That doesn't mean you shouldn't snag one if it fits the bill better than the diesel, it just means to understand that there is no free lunch with any of them. You just have to decide your level of risk tolerance and then move forward.