P219A code 5.7

[Legg]

Have you tried manually resetting the computers?

 

[hunterdan]

Have you tried manually resetting the computers?

Not something I've tried yet. Kind of hesitant to hit the reset button on Alfaobd for fear of bricking it

 

[Ken226]

Aftermarket cats have a long and well earned reputation for this type of issue.

What kind of catalytic converters are they?

 

[hunterdan]

Aftermarket cats have a long and well earned reputation for this type of issue.

What kind of catalytic converters are they?

I fail to see how the cats would be commanding the computer to pull fuel, specifically at idle. O2 switching is really solid. If anything, it should be seeing a lean condition because of the increased airflow since these cats are not near as dense as the factory, not a rich condition. I don't see how there'd be any difference between aftermarket cats (it's not throwing an in efficiency code) and higher flow shorty headers. Like I said, IF anything, it's an incompatibility with the Bosch O2 sensors I installed. However, I believe the factory sensors were partially dead since they never picked up on the leaking injector on cylinder 8, or at least slow to respond. Once the new o2 sensors were installed, they immediately picked up on the fueling imbalance.

I've double checked the evap purge valve, makes no difference with it plugged or not. I'm going to double check the pcv system and make sure it's not pulling oil vapor and burning that.

 

[hunterdan]

Just went to restart it after sitting for a few hours and it cranked and shut off. Then at the next crank it didn't fire. Cycled the key a few times and then it started. So, it lost fuel pressure. I didn't have that issue before today. It's never done that.

 

[hunterdan]

Pressure bleeding down after shut down. Guess I didn't get them as clean as I thought I did. I'm at the point now where I'm probably going to pick up some OEM injectors and start replacing them because when cleaning, I wasn't impressed with the spray pattern (very center focused, not very atomized) and it's obvious at this point I've got fuel from the injectors leaking down into the ports from 1 or more injectors. I'm convinced the sensors are all doing what they're supposed to be doing. At idle, fuel just isn't being atomized enough for a full burn, so it's backing off the injectors. At higher rpms, more air allows for a more complete mixture. I've been watching injector videos for weeks at this point and when I tested mine, the spray pattern looks nothing like a good OEM injector should. I just can't waste any more time, and now the situation is worse than it ever was.

 

[hunterdan]

Ok, here's where I'm at.
I broke down and ordered a set of actual OEM rebuilt injectors from a reputable seller. They came in pretty early today and can confirm, they are 100% oem, deka stampings, Chrysler logo, etc. all of them were the 05037479AA part number.
So, initial start up showed the fuel trim numbers being close to factory, not way off like the knock offs I had, another confirmation that these are indeed oem. Bank 2 seems to run slightly richer than bank 1, but not much. A semi-hot restart seemed to show no fuel bleed off, unlike before where it was sputtering every time it'd start up after sitting for 20+ minutes. I'm going to take it for a decent drive here in a little bit to see how it does. It does feel to be running smoother. At least smoother than after the last injector cleaning I did. Adaptives were reset, we'll see where it lands after a few days and some miles.

 

[hunterdan]

Fuel pressure still seems to be bleeding off. Watching the pressure, at shut down it'll jump to about 62 psi, but after about 20-30 minutes it's dropping down to 40 psi and it'll stumble at startup. I can't get it to go into clear out mode for whatever reason to verify if it's fuel leaking into the ports or just pressure issue. I find it hard to believe that I'm still having a leaking injector after replacing them all. Just doesn't seem likely. But, then again, I didn't have this issue until the second time I cleaned the original injectors, but would have expected these "new" ones to have corrected this issue. The fuel trims at this point, I can be satisfied if they stabilize at a reasonable number, as long as they don't trigger any check engine lights or codes, but the hot restarts are problematic. I have a local shop that can clean injectors for $20/each and I may take the old ones over and have them cleaned and flow checked, flow checking is the one thing I can't do.
The only other thing I can think of would be fuel pressure check valve, which would be in the fuel pump, but considering this issue went away with the first initial cleaning I did, it would still seem likely that it's injector related, but I'm getting baffled.

 

[RedSRT4Me]

Fuel pressure still seems to be bleeding off. Watching the pressure, at shut down it'll jump to about 62 psi, but after about 20-30 minutes it's dropping down to 40 psi and it'll stumble at startup. I can't get it to go into clear out mode for whatever reason to verify if it's fuel leaking into the ports or just pressure issue. I find it hard to believe that I'm still having a leaking injector after replacing them all. Just doesn't seem likely. But, then again, I didn't have this issue until the second time I cleaned the original injectors, but would have expected these "new" ones to have corrected this issue. The fuel trims at this point, I can be satisfied if they stabilize at a reasonable number, as long as they don't trigger any check engine lights or codes, but the hot restarts are problematic. I have a local shop that can clean injectors for $20/each and I may take the old ones over and have them cleaned and flow checked, flow checking is the one thing I can't do.
The only other thing I can think of would be fuel pressure check valve, which would be in the fuel pump, but considering this issue went away with the first initial cleaning I did, it would still seem likely that it's injector related, but I'm getting baffled.

If you're loosing fuel pressure it's at the pump side

 

[hunterdan]

If you're loosing fuel pressure it's at the pump side

I would tend to agree, but if I build the fuel pressure up, it still stumbles when started, even if fuel pressure is sitting at 58 psi when cranking.

 

[RedSRT4Me]

I would tend to agree, but if I build the fuel pressure up, it still stumbles when started, even if fuel pressure is sitting at 58 psi when cranking.

You've changed the injectors but lose fuel pressure while driving? The pump is still the original?

 

[hunterdan]

You've changed the injectors but lose fuel pressure while driving? The pump is still the original?

Never loses fuel pressure when driving, pressure only drops off after the engine is shut off.

 

[hunterdan]

Did a cold engine fuel pressure decay test, so far results are as follows.

So, to me that rules out check valve. Seems to only lose fuel pressure during a hot soak.

 

[crackerjack1957]

Bad evap purge valve can cause a hot soak long crank or no start.

 

[hunterdan]

Evap purge valve has been checked. And even replaced. By checked, I mean pulling and disconnecting from system and isolating it/blocking off vacuum lines and makes no difference in fueling.
Hot soak fuel pressure decay is as follows:

Furthermore, doing a clear flood crank, engine partially fired up meaning fuel had been dumped into the ports during the hot soak. So either an injector is leaking, still or somehow the o-rings are questionable. I didn't have this issue again until I changed the injectors and put different o-rings on.

 

[Wild one]

Evap purge valve has been checked. And even replaced. By checked, I mean pulling and disconnecting from system and isolating it/blocking off vacuum lines and makes no difference in fueling.
Hot soak fuel pressure decay is as follows:
View attachment 585746
Furthermore, doing a clear flood crank, engine partially fired up meaning fuel had been dumped into the ports during the hot soak. So either an injector is leaking, still or somehow the o-rings are questionable. I didn't have this issue again until I changed the injectors and put different o-rings on.

Pull the fuel rail with the injectors still installed in it ,cycle the key on and off and see if you have any fuel drips from the top of the injectors while they're in the rail,and whether you have any drips from any of the injectors

 

[hunterdan]

Pull the fuel rail with the injectors still installed in it ,cycle the key on and off and see if you have any fuel drips from the top of the injectors while they're in the rail,and whether you have any drips from any of the injectors

So, no drips from the rail or injectors, fuel pressure drops like a rock when hot. It's dropping from 60 psi to 40 psi in less than 5 minutes.

Put the rail back in and started up just fine. While checking pressure, it seems to be holding pressure now, where before it wasn't. So maybe pulling the injectors out jarred something loose?

I'm going to continue to monitor the fuel pressure drop.off to see if that comes back or if that's gone. If it does come back, I may add an inline check valve to validate the one in the pump going bad.

 

[Wild one]

So, no drips from the rail or injectors, fuel pressure drops like a rock when hot. It's dropping from 60 psi to 40 psi in less than 5 minutes.

Put the rail back in and started up just fine. While checking pressure, it seems to be holding pressure now, where before it wasn't. So maybe pulling the injectors out jarred something loose?

I'm going to continue to monitor the fuel pressure drop.off to see if that comes back or if that's gone. If it does come back, I may add an inline check valve to validate the one in the pump going bad.

Do you lube the injector o-rings with oil before you install them?

 

[hunterdan]

Do you lube the injector o-rings with oil before you install them?

Yes.

 

[hunterdan]

So, checked the fuel pressure decay after I got home from work again in the morning. Stayed solid, maybe dropped 1 psi after 15 minutes. 30 minute restart was uneventful, which is quite the opposite of what I had been dealing with. So, pulling the fuel rail and reinstalling it did something, not sure what, but it did something. I had reached out to the company I bought the injectors from and explained the previous situation and they were ready to send another set out. After this morning, I emailed them back and explained the situation and told them to not bother. The fact they were willing to send out another set right away and test the ones they sent tells me they believe in their product. So, for now, just keeping an eye on things.
I had my original injectors sitting in cleaner for 2 days soaking after pulling the basket filters again. Went through and pulsed every one to check for spray pattern and flush them. This time I soaked them in a cocktail of techron and redline, hit them with some ultrasonic action, flushed them and cleaned them back up. The new basket filters I got are also 1/2 mm shorter than the ones I pulled out. When I bought the kit to rebuild them before, I bought a kit that was supposed to be specific for these injectors, but I can't remember if the filters were the same length or not. My thought is maybe the new filters were too long and put preload on the pintle or something. No idea. But they're all back together and zip-locked in a clean bag in case something with these still doesn't seem right after a few hundred miles.